Can You Believe This-The Government Wants Us To Go EV but In So Doing They Will impose a gas surcharge

America...Land of the Free. Why should combustion engine owner's support the electric cars ? This is something the majority of the population does not want because if they did, they wouldn't need subsidies in the first place to be viable, profit making products. There is no National charging infrastructure (it can't be done to handle the volume of cars needing a charge). Imagine waiting hours for your electric fill-up on your long business trip, ect. Electric is viable when hydro carbon's start to run out because we will have to make it work... 50+ years from now. Don't pay any attention to the Europeans...those liberal socialists are driving that union down the tubes economically. Negative interest rates, carbon laws, taxes, losing national identities to un-fettered immigration. What a disaster !
 
Christian

Believe what you want. When the ICE was released over 100 years ago was the infrastructure for gas stations readily available?
I think not. People with EV can charge their car in their garage and for what it's worth there already are Super Charging stations all across the USA. Others will follow. Take off the blinkers Christian.

As the saying goes, "last one out, turn off the lights"

Do you really believe that with the rapidly rising costs of fossil fuels the ordinary John Q Public can sustain the ever rising costs? I think not

I understand your position and get where you're coming from . As I said I don't own an EV but that is going to change. When I am able to charge my EV cars for free using my solar home network and garage batteries whilst you continue to pay north of $5/gallon to fill up your big car, sooner or later you might begin to understand. To me you just can't get better than free. Between my wife and me our cars cost about $500/month or $6K per year. That is not a small chunk of change to the ordinary person

Makes me think of the Mad Max movies ;)

Simply put the EV is in its infancy stage exactly like the ICE was over 100 years ago. Where was the network of gas stations at that time that is here now.

For you to say that most ICE owners don't want to subsidize the EV, I get that completely. I am prepared to do my share BUT my share is not going to continue to pay the high and ever rising gas costs. That for me is the simple reason I am going to do what I am and you will continue to get your thrill with the ICE and the beautiful sound the motor makes.

FWIW all the major sports car manufacturers including Ferrari make an EV. Porsche just released their Taycan. BMW and Mercedes make EV's. I think your head is still a bit in the sand when it comes to EV

Ferrari's next hybrid will debut this year, EV coming after 2022. 60 percent of Ferrari's lineup will offer hybrid variants by 2022, also. ... Unlike the V12-toting LaFerrari, though, this new car will reportedly make do with a V8, and it's believed to make more power than the 710-horsepower 488 Pista.

I say keep an open mind Christian. As far as the available tax credits the federal government made them available as an incentive to use alternative energy. Are you the only one who is missing the bigger picture

BTW I am betting that a side by side race between your car and the Taycan would humble you and I would even go so far in saying that a side by side race between your car and the Tesla Model S would do the same. And for closers the Tesla Roadster is the fastest production car in the world and has a battery distance of 620 miles for a price I am betting less the your ICE. I bet you don't get 620 miles per fill up in your car

The world is changing Christian. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. It isn't going away, nor is it a fad
 
Steve, our harbor has about 2000 boat moorings. For the first time, motor boats now outnumber sailboats. It's a bit sad for me and my sailing buddies. My zero-emissions watercraft is now in the minority. I am on the wrong side of that trend as people seem to want to buy gas guzzling motor boats instead. As a guy who loves the water and eating fish, I am concerned about pollution in our seas. And of course I favor a clean stiff breeze.
 
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Seems like all vehicles should be taxed on the miles traveled in the state, the vehicle weight and number of tires on the vehicle. This is exactly what wears roads, so this is a just tax. Commercial trucks should not get any breaks. The technology in new vehicles allows all of this information to be collected. Older vehicles are a problem. Have to trust the owners to give valid info.
 
America...Land of the Free. Why should combustion engine owner's support the electric cars ? This is something the majority of the population does not want because if they did, they wouldn't need subsidies in the first place to be viable, profit making products. There is no National charging infrastructure (it can't be done to handle the volume of cars needing a charge). Imagine waiting hours for your electric fill-up on your long business trip, ect. Electric is viable when hydro carbon's start to run out because we will have to make it work... 50+ years from now. Don't pay any attention to the Europeans...those liberal socialists are driving that union down the tubes economically. Negative interest rates, carbon laws, taxes, losing national identities to un-fettered immigration. What a disaster !

Don't get political. This is not about politics. Freedom has nothing to do with being socially responsible and a good citizen.
 
Do you really believe that with the rapidly rising costs of fossil fuels the ordinary John Q Public can sustain the ever rising costs? I think not

Cost of fossil fuels has gone significantly down in the past 10 years. We topped wholesale prices at 3.50 in 2007 and they are now 1.67. I doubt we will ever see $140 oil again in my lifetime, much like 10%+ interest rates from the late 70s/early 80s. Don't even ask about nat gas which I remember at 14/mmbtu and is now down below 3...

Teslas cost more than equivalent ICE cars even after the gas savings (unless you own the car forever) so at this point, they aren't saving $. Someday that might change. As someone said before, high mpg ICE cars are the most efficient, cost effective out there currently.
 
Cost of fossil fuels has gone significantly down in the past 10 years. We topped wholesale prices at 3.50 in 2007 and they are now 1.67. I doubt we will ever see $140 oil again in my lifetime, much like 10%+ interest rates from the late 70s/early 80s. Don't even ask about nat gas which I remember at 14/mmbtu and is now down below 3...

Teslas cost more than equivalent ICE cars even after the gas savings (unless you own the car forever) so at this point, they aren't saving $. Someday that might change. As someone said before, high mpg ICE cars are the most efficient, cost effective out there currently.
Once again Keith I will respectfully disagree with you

If ICE cars can beat free I'll take one. Show me how free is less efficient than ICE

Keith let's revisit your comment about Tesla batteries being outdated technology. You made a sweeping comment that needs reply because again I feel you are misguided and misinformed. You make sweeping statements that IMO are easy to refute

Tesla Batteries Have 90% Capacity After 160,000 Miles, May Last For 500,000 miles

I have never owned a car for 160,000 miles let alone 500,000 but heck what do these guys know about outdated technology. Point me to something better at the present time that gives peace of mind that your battery will likely outlive you

Way back at the dawn of the electric car era — about 10 years ago now — the knock on electric cars was that their batteries wouldn’t last 100,000 miles. Owners would be forced to pay many thousands of dollars to replace them every few years. What’s the point of saving a little bit of money on gasoline if you have spend megabucks to buy a new battery on a regular basis?

TeslaYou still hear this from fossil fuel advocates trying to scare people out of buying electric cars, but a survey of 350 Tesla drivers by a European contingent of Tesla owners reveals that such concerns are not warranted. Actual Tesla owners report about a 5% drop in battery capacity by the 50,000 mile mark but after than, the rate of degradation drops considerably. On average, cars with 160,000 miles on them still have 90% of their battery capacity remaining. Projecting forward from the real world data available, a Tesla battery should still have 80% battery capacity after 500,000 miles of driving, the group claims. The vast majority of internal combustion engines would have stopped functioning long before then.

As reported by Engadget, Tesla has no battery degradation warranty on its Model S and Model X vehicles but does guarantee the standard battery for the Model 3 will retain 70% of its capacity for 100,000 miles. The guarantee for the long range Model 3 battery is 120,000 miles. By comparison, Nissan guarantees the battery in the LEAF will have at least 66% of original capacity after 100,000 miles

Average performance is no guarantee of individual performance. The European survey did reveal some Tesla drivers experienced significantly shorter battery life. But in general, people should have fewer concerns about replacing batteries every few years than they did ten years ago — at least if they are driving a Tesla. .
 
I happen to be a citizen from a «liberal socialist» country in Europe and I have both an EV and an ICE cars. So let me give some perspective from the other side of the pond.

There is a myth I want to bust. Most European Union countries are not that generous with EVs. I did not get any subsidy for my EV. My country has been applying for many years the « you pollute, you pay » concept by enforcing a rather steep road tax primarily based on CO2 emissions, horsepower and engine cubic liters as well as by taxing the drivers at the fuel pump. This has been in place long before the arrival of EVs on the market. The only gain I have on my EV is a relatively reduced road tax. No tax credit or other benefits. To my knowledge, the European Union Member States are not subsidizing the charging stations networks. All is financed by the private sector.

Actually, the only European country that has been pushing very hard for the adoption of EVs is not a part of the European Union and is also the largest oil producer of Europe. It is Norway where about one car out of ten is an EV.

The State is considering taxing solar panel installations by adding a surcharge for reinjecting the electricity into the grid. Having discussed with engineers, I understand that there are associated costs on the infrastructure for absorbing all the electricity reinjected during the day. My electricity meter is working both ways. The electricity I produce and don't consume during the day gets injected into the grid and gets deducted from the meter. The next step will consist in installing battery packs.

Christian. I don’t know if you have kids. I have two who are in college. They received a «liberal» education which in Europe means «I believe in free market and I don’t support socialist ideas but I do accept the intervention of the government in the interest of common good». Their views on the world are rather enlightening. For instance, they will only buy organic food they get from a grocery shop, which guarantees the provenance from local producers. They don’t care about cars. They live in the capital city and they use their bicycles.

Somehow my kids have pushed me to go for solar panels and also install a hot-water solar system as well as taking a utility company, which only gets its energy sources from hydro and wind. Using my EV is almost carbon neutral. Driving an EV which gets is energy from coal is clearly a non-sense. When part of my country and the neighboring country is below sea level, climate change actually matters.

My daily commute (about 35 miles) is boring as hell. Driving an EV to work is great and at least I can justify why I opted for a top of the range Meridian Audio system in my car. I have never enjoyed music so much in a car since I’ve got an EV.

I have a home charger, so my EV gets plenty of juice whenever necessary. Acceleration and torque are indeed superlative but frankly who needs so much for a daily commute?

Honestly, besides acceleration and torque, an EV will not give the same sensation and satisfaction you get from an ICE car for a petrol head like you. Hence the reason why I still have a small « cat » for the weekend and long escapes that I don’t want to plan in advance by looking where I will find charging stations though the onboard software will take care of all this.

However, I opted for a smaller turbo charged engine instead of a big V8. The small and nimble but reasonably powerful engine gives me plenty of pleasure on the narrow and windings roads of the countryside.

Somehow, we need to accept that big normally aspirated ICE engines are becoming dinosaurs.

And if you wonder what my rides are looking like:

 
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I happen to be a citizen from a «liberal socialist» country in Europe and I have both an EV and an ICE cars. So let me give some perspective from the other side of the pond.

There is a myth I want to bust. Most European Union countries are not that generous with EVs. I did not get any subsidy for my EV. My country has been applying for many years the « you pollute, you pay » concept by enforcing a rather steep road tax primarily based on CO2 emissions, horsepower and engine cubic liters as well as by taxing the drivers at the fuel pump. This has been in place long before the arrival of EVs on the market. The only gain I have on my EV is a relatively reduced road tax. No tax credit or other benefits. To my knowledge, the European Union Member States are not subsidizing the charging stations networks. All is financed by the private sector.

Actually, the only European country that has been pushing very hard for the adoption of EVs is not a part of the European Union and is also the largest oil producer of Europe. It is Norway where about one car out of ten is an EV.

The State is considering taxing solar panel installations by adding a surcharge for reinjecting the electricity into the grid. Having discussed with engineers, I understand that there are associated costs on the infrastructure for absorbing all the electricity reinjected during the day. My electricity meter is working both ways. The electricity I produce and don't consume during the day gets injected into the grid and gets deducted from the meter. The next step will consist in installing battery packs.

Christian. I don’t know if you have kids. I have two who are in college. They received a «liberal» education which in Europe means «I believe in free market and I don’t support socialist ideas but I do accept the intervention of the government in the interest of common good». Their views on the world are rather enlightening. For instance, they will only buy organic food they get from a grocery shop, which guarantees the provenance from local producers. They don’t care about cars. They live in the capital city and they use their bicycles.

Somehow my kids have pushed me to go for solar panels and also install a hot-water solar system as well as taking a utility company, which only gets its energy sources from hydro and wind. Using my EV is almost carbon neutral. Driving an EV which gets is energy from coal is a clearly non-sense. When part of my country and the neighboring country is below sea level, climate change actually matters.

My daily commute (about 35 miles) is boring as hell. Driving an EV to work is great and at least I can justify why I opted for a top of the range Meridian Audio system in my car. I have never enjoyed music so much in a car since I’ve got an EV.

I have a home charger, so my EV gets plenty of juice whenever necessary. Acceleration and torque are indeed superlative but frankly who needs so much for a daily commute?

Honestly, besides acceleration and torque, an EV will not give the same sensation and satisfaction you get from an ICE car for a petrol head like you. Hence the reason why I still have a small « cat » for the weekend and long escapes that I don’t want to plan in advance by looking where I will find charging stations though the onboard software will take care of all this.

However, I opted for a smaller turbo charged engine instead of a big V8. The small and nimble but reasonably powerful engine gives me plenty of pleasure on the narrow and windings roads of the countryside.

Somehow, we need to accept that big normally aspirated ICE engines are becoming dinosaurs.

And if you wonder what my rides are looking like:


Spot on!!!. I agree 100%
 
Seems like all vehicles should be taxed on the miles traveled in the state, the vehicle weight and number of tires on the vehicle. This is exactly what wears roads, so this is a just tax. Commercial trucks should not get any breaks. The technology in new vehicles allows all of this information to be collected. Older vehicles are a problem. Have to trust the owners to give valid info.

Great idea. The roads need to be funded somehow. And as a usage fee, it acts like a flat tax. The fare is more fair.
 
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Christian

Believe what you want. When the ICE was released over 100 years ago was the infrastructure for gas stations readily available?
I think not. People with EV can charge their car in their garage and for what it's worth there already are Super Charging stations all across the USA. Others will follow. Take off the blinkers Christian.

As the saying goes, "last one out, turn off the lights"

Do you really believe that with the rapidly rising costs of fossil fuels the ordinary John Q Public can sustain the ever rising costs? I think not

I understand your position and get where you're coming from . As I said I don't own an EV but that is going to change. When I am able to charge my EV cars for free using my solar home network and garage batteries whilst you continue to pay north of $5/gallon to fill up your big car, sooner or later you might begin to understand. To me you just can't get better than free. Between my wife and me our cars cost about $500/month or $6K per year. That is not a small chunk of change to the ordinary person

Makes me think of the Mad Max movies ;)

Simply put the EV is in its infancy stage exactly like the ICE was over 100 years ago. Where was the network of gas stations at that time that is here now.

For you to say that most ICE owners don't want to subsidize the EV, I get that completely. I am prepared to do my share BUT my share is not going to continue to pay the high and ever rising gas costs. That for me is the simple reason I am going to do what I am and you will continue to get your thrill with the ICE and the beautiful sound the motor makes.

FWIW all the major sports car manufacturers including Ferrari make an EV. Porsche just released their Taycan. BMW and Mercedes make EV's. I think your head is still a bit in the sand when it comes to EV

Ferrari's next hybrid will debut this year, EV coming after 2022. 60 percent of Ferrari's lineup will offer hybrid variants by 2022, also. ... Unlike the V12-toting LaFerrari, though, this new car will reportedly make do with a V8, and it's believed to make more power than the 710-horsepower 488 Pista.

I say keep an open mind Christian. As far as the available tax credits the federal government made them available as an incentive to use alternative energy. Are you the only one who is missing the bigger picture

BTW I am betting that a side by side race between your car and the Taycan would humble you and I would even go so far in saying that a side by side race between your car and the Tesla Model S would do the same. And for closers the Tesla Roadster is the fastest production car in the world and has a battery distance of 620 miles for a price I am betting less the your ICE. I bet you don't get 620 miles per fill up in your car

The world is changing Christian. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. It isn't going away, nor is it a fad

Well you have bought into the great liberal power grab. Congrats. When the gov't controls your hydrocrabon, you have no power. Climate change ? Yah...no shit. The climate has been changing since it's inception, we are not going to stop it. Liberal fascists should focus on the real polluters...Asia, India and most developing countries. As far as sports cars go, there will never be an electric or electric assist in my garage. Porsche, Ferrari have prematurely ejaculated on battery power. They of course have no choice...the fascist socialist fucktards in power(EU) are to blame.
 
after 45 years in the automobile business here is how this looks to me. forget politics and the environment.

the two-headed 800 pound gorilla in the room is (1) the high true transaction costs of Hybrids and EV's, and (2) the amortization of the development costs of these models is not recouped due to relatively low volume. what is happening in the luxury segment is not very relevant.

yet the green wave keeps pushing us forward into the abyss.

the overall market volume will shrink dramatically as the prices for all this tech rises. and the high volume ICE products that fund the alternate fuel vehicles now will go away. we are now past a $30k USD average transaction cost trending toward $50k USD cost (in present dollars) within 10-15 years. most buyers will be left out of that equation. government can't subsidize the whole auto market.

at some point it will be recognized just how much of most modern economies are driven by the auto industry and related businesses......which will have far reaching consequences. car fees fund lots of government in every locality.

as most here are 1%'rs or at least 5%'rs our heads are in the clouds.
 
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The thing we should be taking a strong look at is Nuclear Power. I watched a Doc on Bill Gates and it appears he has a group of scientists and engineers that have designed a truly safe nuclear power reactor that uses spent fuel. The reactor is cooled with liquid metal. Chinas leader came to meet with Bill Gates and signed a contract for use of this nuclear power reactor in China but because of US Tariffs the project has been shut down indefinitely, and not by China, but by Trump administration. This power reactor looks very interesting only needing refueling every 10 years. We have enough spent fuel to power the whole US for over 100 years.
 
Well you have bought into the great liberal power grab. Congrats. When the gov't controls your hydrocrabon, you have no power. Climate change ? Yah...no shit. The climate has been changing since it's inception, we are not going to stop it. Liberal fascists should focus on the real polluters...Asia, India and most developing countries. As far as sports cars go, there will never be an electric or electric assist in my garage. Porsche, Ferrari have prematurely ejaculated on battery power. They of course have no choice...the fascist socialist fucktards in power(EU) are to blame.

Christian.

I get more than 100% of the energy I require from my roof.

Charging an EV as a result using a home battery will suffice as I intend to store all energy above the 100% that I require for my house


.In my first year of my home solar system I used just over 10,000 KWH but I produced almost 18000 KWH . That difference will suffice to charge a car. So once again I ask you what you've got that beats "free". I don't see the government controlling the sun.

To each our own Christian. I have my exit plan and you have yours. That's what makes the world a special place as we are all free to make decisions as we see fit. I'm tired of paying increasing costs of gasoline to fill 2 Mercedes each month as well as the increasing cost of electricity. Not sure what you pay for electricity but here in South Orange County, SDGE charges as much as $0.45 per kWh !!!!

My house has had extra insulation, we use 100% LED and we are now considering an efficient whole house fan all for the purposes of improving things ecologically. I have no problem paying my fair share for the upkeep of roads .Where I draw the line is the ever rising price of energy and there are ways everyone can minimize their exposure

So once again show me something that is better than free. Let's also not forget the reality of a side by side 0-60 of your car which is damn fast but pales compared to the acceleration of an EV. My son's Model 3 snuffs my Mercedes SL AMG at 508 bhp.We all have choices. I respect yours without any of the name calling or melt down that you just demonstrated. Reality is reality and IMHO you are overlooking the very obvious but as I said we all have choices. You are crapping on those people who have made the change and their choice. It goes to show how entrenched the 2 camps are. There is no reason for your reaction. It's a changing world.

And finally I still have no skin in the game as I don't own an EV but I understand change and see the handwriting on the wall. Change comes to everyone as they adapt. Some just sooner than later
 
The thing we should be taking a strong look at is Nuclear Power. I watched a Doc on Bill Gates and it appears he has a group of scientists and engineers that have designed a truly safe nuclear power reactor that uses spent fuel. The reactor is cooled with liquid metal. Chinas leader came to meet with Bill Gates and signed a contract for use of this nuclear power reactor in China but because of US Tariffs the project has been shut down indefinitely, and not by China, but by Trump administration. This power reactor looks very interesting only needing refueling every 10 years. We have enough spent fuel to power the whole US for over 100 years.


I didn't know this. My question is why didn't Gates offer to sell it to the USA
 
One last thing Christian........

The climate has been changing since it's inception, we are not going to stop it.

Your suggestion because climate has been changing since inception, we should just ignore it?????

I said before take off the blinkers. This is reality. It isn't a political thing but a global thing. IT affects all of us......yourself included

And you call this buying into a liberal power grab. I mention this again only to suggest its total irrelevance in the great picture
 
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