Chinese DAC shames a few heavy hitters

[NorthStar]

You seem to be the only one around here who thinks that, Bob. So yes, personal opinion it is.

Al, almost 6,500 views, 5-star rating thread, and WBF is a very small forum composed of some of the best individuals in the audio/video world (music/films).
I would say that my opinion is reflected by few others too. :b

Mike knows about DACs and the quality part's implementation. And for a far reaching audience...rich and less rich (financially and knowledge wise).
We are learning, first about affordable and quality performance DACs. ...And two about provenance and specmanship. ...Solid information/apprentissage we all benefit from.

* I am listening to some beautiful classical music ? right now...on the r.a.d.i.o. (piano and violin)...simply subliminal.
The day is gorgeous and warm outside; the adults and children are playing and happy. I just walked with some of them, and I am sitting outside on my veranda.
Sunday like they used to be...peaceful and enchanteur. ...Walking between trees and mountains.

 

[Blizzard]

Al, almost 6,500 views, 5-star rating thread, and WBF is a very small forum composed of some of the best individuals in the audio/video world (music/films).
I would say that my opinion is reflected by few others too. :b

Mike knows about DACs and the quality part's implementation. And for a far reaching audience...rich and less rich (financially and knowledge wise).
We are learning, first about affordable and quality performance DACs. ...And two about provenance and specmanship. ...Solid information/apprentissage we all benefit from.

* I am listening to some beautiful classical music ? right now...on the r.a.d.i.o. (piano and violin)...simply subliminal.
The day is gorgeous and warm outside; the adults and children are playing and happy. I just walked with some of them, and I am sitting outside on my veranda.
Sunday like they used to be...peaceful and enchanteur. ...Walking between trees and mountains.

You're truly a great guy Bob!. If these guys only knew how many people sign up to the forum just to PM me, they would be in for a shock. They come here to talk to me via PM, but would never talk publicly because they would just be attacked from some troll anyways. Not worth the time or effort for them. Hopefully one day the trolls will be displaced by all of the new open minded members, and the forum will be all around a better place for everyone

 

[bonzo75]

You're truly a great guy Bob!. If these guys only knew how many people sign up to the forum just to PM me, they would be in for a shock. They come here to talk to me via PM, but would never talk publicly because they would just be attacked from some troll anyways. Not worth the time or effort for them. Hopefully one day the trolls will be displaced by all of the new open minded members, and the forum will be all around a better place for everyone

This is great. Why don't you shift to PM only then? Happy for you

 

[treitz3]

Hello, Bonzo and good afternoon to you. Comments like that are off topic, uncalled for and completely unnecessary. Please refrain from doing this from here on out. We are better than that.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

This is great. Why don't you shift to PM only then? Happy for you

No; much more reaching on the public forum...more happy learning people. :b
That's what open forums are about. The negative comments, opinion's variation, ...are just part of public life. ...With more challenges come more discoveries.

P.S. I didn't see your post Tom until after posting mine.

 

[scouter]

Ok, back to the original programming. I spoke with Lee, a fellow NC audiophile, about the Gustard DAC. It just so happened we both were familiar with the vega and Yggy, both very good Dacs. His enthusiasm for the Gustard led me to spring for the $800. investment.
Initially, out of the box and cold, quite a bit of digital glare, but noticibly more detail than either the Vega or Yggy. 24 hours later, much smoother, and a lot less glare. 100 or so hours continuous use, and I sat down for some listening. (Marty tells me it gets better for several weeks, and I have no reason to doubt him.)
System is MacBook Pro running Audirvana- Berkeley Alpha USB- Constellation Inspiration pre- Inspiration Stereo - Magico S5, with all digital cables Wireworld. Interconnects -speaker cables MIT except for Audioquest Lapis between Gustard and preamp.
I have written what I heard below. YMMV, and all is IMHO
The DAC has a very expansive soundstage. It doesn't exaggerate the size of individual instruments, but when there is depth in a recording, it gives you depth. Recordings that are more intimate and have a closer soundstage, the Gustard gives you a very wide stage. Soundstage is both deeper and wider, and there is more detail than with either the Yggy or the Vega. Cymbals have nice detail and shimmer. Dynamics are good, but less than the Yggy, though that could be due to less air the Yggy gives all instruments.
I listened to the Gustard directly into the preamp, bypassing the Berkeley Alpha and Wireworld Aes cable, and it still has the same sonic signature of expansive soundstage and detail, but the addition of the Berkeley increases the soundstage and is a little quieter, so detail is more apparent.
The Vega is smoother and will suite some systems better. It does give up detail to the Gustard. The Yggy is a really interesting DAC, and everyone who can should give it a listen. It has a legion of followers, and I can see why. It sounds more like music in certain respects. In the end, it lacked detail in my system that the Gustard has, but I really enjoyed listening to it. Vocals are superb IMHO.
I've never heard a DAC costing more than $5000., so I can't comment on comparisons among the big boys. I will say I listened for 6 hours today and 5 hours last night, and never had listener fatigue. There are many out there that can't afford some of the higher priced audio but love music (myself included-everything but speakers was bought used). The Gustard brings great sound to us, IMHO. The fact that it even competes with the Yggy and Vega at its price point, much less betters them in some areas, speaks volumes. I'm very happy with my purchase, and have released the Yggy and Vega to other music lovers who will no doubt enjoy them and their strengths. The Gustard is staying in my system for now, and is one of my favorite DACS. (The other, Ayre QB9 DSD, which I enjoy, but apparently am in a minority in this forum, as it doesn't seem to get a lot of attention)
Note- I didn't listen to the Gustard as a preamp-DAC , directly into an amp. I have listened to the Vega as a preamp, and thought it sounded better as a DAC alone, using my constellation preamp. I know that doesn't make sense, but that's the way it sounded to my aging ears. YMMV in ALL of the above
Thanks Marty! That's what it's all about in a forum like this. Sharing your findings with others in our brotherhoods!

 

[Blizzard]

Ok, back to the original programming. I spoke with Lee, a fellow NC audiophile, about the Gustard DAC. It just so happened we both were familiar with the vega and Yggy, both very good Dacs. His enthusiasm for the Gustard led me to spring for the $800. investment.
Initially, out of the box and cold, quite a bit of digital glare, but noticibly more detail than either the Vega or Yggy. 24 hours later, much smoother, and a lot less glare. 100 or so hours continuous use, and I sat down for some listening. (Marty tells me it gets better for several weeks, and I have no reason to doubt him.)
System is MacBook Pro running Audirvana- Berkeley Alpha USB- Constellation Inspiration pre- Inspiration Stereo - Magico S5, with all digital cables Wireworld. Interconnects -speaker cables MIT except for Audioquest Lapis between Gustard and preamp.
I have written what I heard below. YMMV, and all is IMHO
The DAC has a very expansive soundstage. It doesn't exaggerate the size of individual instruments, but when there is depth in a recording, it gives you depth. Recordings that are more intimate and have a closer soundstage, the Gustard gives you a very wide stage. Soundstage is both deeper and wider, and there is more detail than with either the Yggy or the Vega. Cymbals have nice detail and shimmer. Dynamics are good, but less than the Yggy, though that could be due to less air the Yggy gives all instruments.
I listened to the Gustard directly into the preamp, bypassing the Berkeley Alpha and Wireworld Aes cable, and it still has the same sonic signature of expansive soundstage and detail, but the addition of the Berkeley increases the soundstage and is a little quieter, so detail is more apparent.
The Vega is smoother and will suite some systems better. It does give up detail to the Gustard. The Yggy is a really interesting DAC, and everyone who can should give it a listen. It has a legion of followers, and I can see why. It sounds more like music in certain respects. In the end, it lacked detail in my system that the Gustard has, but I really enjoyed listening to it. Vocals are superb IMHO.
I've never heard a DAC costing more than $5000., so I can't comment on comparisons among the big boys. I will say I listened for 6 hours today and 5 hours last night, and never had listener fatigue. There are many out there that can't afford some of the higher priced audio but love music (myself included-everything but speakers was bought used). The Gustard brings great sound to us, IMHO. The fact that it even competes with the Yggy and Vega at its price point, much less betters them in some areas, speaks volumes. I'm very happy with my purchase, and have released the Yggy and Vega to other music lovers who will no doubt enjoy them and their strengths. The Gustard is staying in my system for now, and is one of my favorite DACS. (The other, Ayre QB9 DSD, which I enjoy, but apparently am in a minority in this forum, as it doesn't seem to get a lot of attention)
Note- I didn't listen to the Gustard as a preamp-DAC , directly into an amp. I have listened to the Vega as a preamp, and thought it sounded better as a DAC alone, using my constellation preamp. I know that doesn't make sense, but that's the way it sounded to my aging ears. YMMV in ALL of the above
Thanks Marty! That's what it's all about in a forum like this. Sharing your findings with others in our brotherhoods!

Hi Scouter,

I'm glad you enjoy this DAC. Now what you should really try is using HQplayer to resample all PCM to DSD 128. You will have to connect via USB to do it though. You can download the free trial to try it out. And for the ultimate way to do things checkout my streamer thread. this will take things to a level you would never imagine as it bypasses one of the weakest links in the DAC being the sabre chip SDM/SRC. Also try direct to an amp. There's a very robust output stage on this DAC that should drive your amp direct quite well.

Then there's also the low cost clock upgrades that will take it to another level further!

To setup HQplayer the best way, please refer to the guide:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19287-Superstream-setup-guide/page3

 

[Ric Schultz]

Equals and or beats the Yggy and Vega again.....very nice......but does not sound as good as Manhattan or Nadac.......but this thing is stock! I have further looked at the pics and I see some things that look like they would make a serious improvement. The ESS DACs usually are run with a 100 meg clock.....it looks like the clock is on the digital board and is run via that coax to a connector next to the DACs.....this is not good. You want the clock as close as possible to the DACs. So, a Crystek Femto clock with great power supply should be mounted directly where that coax connector on the output board is. This could make a serious improvement. Also the output stage seems to have both op amps as IV converters and then discrete buffers after that......but the buffers look like they have servo circuits to remove DC on the output. Servo circuits mess up the sound. What we need is one single great discrete I-V stage from the DACs to the output jacks (like Mike's fave the Sonic Imagery) or if one volt RMS is enough (for those with preamps) then using a zero feedback fet buffer on the output of the DACs is probably even better. This is what I do in my Oppo mods......and I also run the output buffers on my own discrete shunt regulators for even better sound. Of course, you would want to change the other two clocks to Crystek femtos as well. And naturally, better fuses, damping, WA quantum chips, etc. My offer still stands.....first one to send me a Gustard X20 to mod gets the mod for parts plus $100.......this could blow your mind!

 

[Blizzard]

Equals and or beats the Yggy and Vega again.....very nice......but does not sound as good as Manhattan or Nadac.......but this thing is stock! I have further looked at the pics and I see some things that look like they would make a serious improvement. The ESS DACs usually are run with a 100 meg clock.....it looks like the clock is on the digital board and is run via that coax to a connector next to the DACs.....this is not good. You want the clock as close as possible to the DACs. So, a Crystek Femto clock with great power supply should be mounted directly where that coax connector on the output board is. This could make a serious improvement. Also the output stage seems to have both op amps as IV converters and then discrete buffers after that......but the buffers look like they have servo circuits to remove DC on the output. Servo circuits mess up the sound. What we need is one single great discrete I-V stage from the DACs to the output jacks (like Mike's fave the Sonic Imagery) or if one volt RMS is enough (for those with preamps) then using a zero feedback fet buffer on the output of the DACs is probably even better. This is what I do in my Oppo mods......and I also run the output buffers on my own discrete shunt regulators for even better sound. Of course, you would want to change the other two clocks to Crystek femtos as well. And naturally, better fuses, damping, WA quantum chips, etc. My offer still stands.....first one to send me a Gustard X20 to mod gets the mod for parts plus $100.......this could blow your mind!

Did you see the clock's, and dedicated clock power supply kit for this DAC shared earlier in this thread with the Crystek 957's?

 

[Ric Schultz]

Yes, I did.....those are from Hong Kong, I believe.....mine are right here...made by me. My sense is that those two clocks are the 22 and 24 meg clocks....not the 100 meg for the DACs. You need all three changed and especially the 100 megger. There are two more clocks that could be changed on the USB input board as well....probably another set of 22 and 24 meg clocks......

 

[Blizzard]

Yes, I did.....those are from Hong Kong, I believe.....mine are right here...made by me. My sense is that those two clocks are the 22 and 24 meg clocks....not the 100 meg for the DACs. You need all three changed and especially the 100 megger. There are two more clocks that could be changed on the USB input board as well....probably another set of 22 and 24 meg clocks......

Those must be the USB clocks. Well mod one away, and make it a turn key product with warranty. And do it quick, what are you waiting for! I hear it will be a while before OEM's start getting their 9038 pro's. March at the earliest for the biggest clients, and who knows how long before the small guys get them. So this DAC should be current for at least another year. Oh yea and heard the 9038pro can be a drop in replacement for the 9018 if 1 pin is bent back and the FPGA is remapped. So no need to build something new from scratch if the manufacturers don't want to.

The problem with mounting the clock on the analog board is it is also clocking the Altera hybrid FPGA on the digital board. So you would still have to send the clock back to it. Might get a bit tricky, doing everything right. I already thought of this. They are also using a similar type of clocking as the Resonessence Mirus where a PLL is generated in the FPGA and sent to the chip. I guess there's 2 different clocking modes, and that mode seems to be preferred. This was something that wasn't covered in the feedback shared on this thread so far. Likely they haven't even got the best out of it yet, or these details would have been shared.

 

[Blizzard]

I just found this on another thread as well. But can't find the source of where it's from:



Looks like a way better board if compatible. And talk about easy upgrade!

And here's the stock board:

 

[Blizzard]

Look here. Just like I thought. The same as the Mirus does it in auto mode. You must be Chinese to get the juicy info, either that or use Google translate


"Ad hoc Master clock mode: under multiyear research and development, DAC-X20 has been given this unique feature to convert the ES9018S wafer at an optimum clock environment, to reach the HI-END level of performance. When selecting NORMAL option, the clock mode to normal mode, there is the official design of asynchronous external crystal mode ES9018 100MHz; when selected for AUTO, DAC-X20 will enter the adaptive main clock mode, a press of the clock input signal source signal, generated by the high-performance phase-locked loop master clock, direct supply to the ES9018, since the main clock signal from the clock is no longer a conventional asynchronous mode, ES9018 digital interpolation filter will no longer produce a weak error, the original Digital signals can be accurately reduced to an analog signal."




https://translate.google.ca/transla...orum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=87407&prev=search

 

[Ric Schultz]

It is not clear which board you get with the DAC. Here is shows the "better" board installed and separate: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC...S9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958

Here it shows the "not as good" board: http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustar...018-xmos-hifi-dac-384khz-dsd-dop-decoder.html

I will email Shenzhenaudio and see what is up......of course, we can have anyone who owns it open the lid and see what is there. Hopefully, they are shipping the "better" board.

 

[Blizzard]

It is not clear which board you get with the DAC. Here is shows the "better" board installed and separate: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GUSTARD-DAC...S9018-XMOS-USB-384KHZ-DSD64-128-/111708547958

Here it shows the "not as good" board: http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustar...018-xmos-hifi-dac-384khz-dsd-dop-decoder.html

I will email Shenzhenaudio and see what is up......of course, we can have anyone who owns it open the lid and see what is there. Hopefully, they are shipping the "better" board.

Yes that is awful strange as the 1st board looks like it's likely much better. Maybe one is the X20, and other is X20U? Hopefully they are real risk takers as some people are afraid of even opening a lid

 

[Ric Schultz]

Creamy Custard DAC just now ordered and on its way here. Was ordered from the Forexman/EBAY site that shows the better USB module. When it arrives I will open it and take pics and we can all see what is "really" inside. My friend wants the zero feedback buffers in his unit as he has 99db speakers so driving an amp with 1 volt is no problem. This is going to be fun!

 

[Blizzard]

Creamy Custard DAC just now ordered and on its way here. Was ordered from the Forexman/EBAY site that shows the better USB module. When it arrives I will open it and take pics and we can all see what is "really" inside. My friend wants the zero feedback buffers in his unit as he has 99db speakers so driving an amp with 1 volt is no problem. This is going to be fun!

Excellent. I'm sure this thread is going to be popular once you get some killer mod pictures up. Turn this DAC into a real giant killer!

 

[chrispiyux]

Excellent. I'm sure this thread is going to be popular once you get some killer mod pictures up. Turn this DAC into a real giant killer!

Hi,
i'm new here and find this thread after searching information about the Gustard X20u.
i ordered one 10 days ago and received it last week. This week end i open the lid and I can confirm the USB board is the new one (the one with the 2 modules Accusilicon).
On Head-Fi another guy also opened it last week and saw the same module. What i understood is that all new DACs have this module.

 

[Blizzard]

Hi,
i'm new here and find this thread after searching information about the Gustard X20u.
i ordered one 10 days ago and received it last week. This week end i open the lid and I can confirm the USB board is the new one (the one with the 2 modules Accusilicon).
On Head-Fi another guy also opened it last week and saw the same module. What i understood is that all new DACs have this module.

Excellent! Looks like a great interface with good clocks! What do you think of the sound? Did you try the 2 clocking modes? Many say 200 hours plus until it really starts sounding good.

 

[chrispiyux]

Excellent! Looks like a great interface with good clocks! What do you think of the sound? Did you try the 2 clocking modes? Many say 200 hours plus until it really starts sounding good.

Hi,
i'm not an expert in high end DAC. My previous DAC was a PS Audio Nuwave, and i haven't done direct comparison. My item has maybe 50hours running and right now i can say the sound is not harsh at all. I think i hear more details than with my previous but it's hard to say.

At this time, i didn't try the 2 clocking modes, i only listen in Auto with the Slow filter.

I read all the topics and you guys seem to be good technicians. So i've a question : do you think the volume control is degrading the sound ? (i don't know how it is internally managed actually). The balanced output is high at 0db so i'd like to drop the sound at -10db for example, what do you think about that ?

Thanks