Converter loop-back tests

[Steve williams]

Nicely stated Frantz

 

[Ethan Winer]

4 out of 4 right. Hmmm . Did that influence you at all Ethan in not wanting to give the answers?

Not at all! I just wanted more replies. And I do not have any agenda beyond letting people learn for themselves how much or little degradation occurs through decent quality converters.

How do you think he accomplished that? Pure luck? Great ears? Him outsmarting you?

I have no idea. I think the odds of getting four out of four correct are 2^4 or 1 in 16, so he likely did hear the small degradation with each pass. Or maybe he was just lucky. Who knows? This is why it's useful to have as many replies as possible. It's also useful to have multiple sound sources rather than just one as I did here. If there were four different musical excerpts, and someone got the order correct all four times, that's enough for me to agree they really hear it. But if someone gets the order right only once, and totally wrong other times (picking Pass 5 or Pass 10 as the original), that tells me they were just lucky.

I'd gladly create a much more thorough set of test files if I thought people would be willing to listen and vote. But it's clear that those with the strongest opinions are not interested, even though they're the ones who need it the most. Has anyone here even said if my second file is acceptable?

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I for one don't agree with many of his points but I would not reject them all especially when I am not able to refute them on purely logical and scientific grounds.

I always wonder why, in discussions like this, when someone is unable to refute something, they continue to hold the same position anyway.

I don't expect this to change at once. It is after all primarily an audiophile forum

I don't see why "audiophile" assumes an anti-science stance. Nobody is more of an audiophile than me! And so are all of my science-minded "objectivist" musician and recording engineer friends.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Sure you're not referring to Etan Ron?

Can you show one example of me putting up a straw man? If you can't, are you willing to apologize and retract this statement?

--Ethan

 

[Gregadd]

I'll be interested to see how many people can discern the various generations from each other and from the original. Especially Bruce. But please folks: if you don't state your guesses before I post the answers in a few days, do not post later that you could tell wI'm surprised Ethan started this thread. Take his own products for instance. I purchased some Diffusors from him to put in my studio. I got them and opened the box. WTF?? These are made from cheap thin gauge metal (ring!!) and FOAM BOARD??? come on now..... over $600 EACH! I couldn't get rid of them fast enough.... got RPG diffusors made of real maple instead.... the only wood on Ethan's diffusors are a thin strip in the middle keeping them from falling apart! I can give him props though for taking them back with no questions asked. Cost me in shipping though. hich is which!

--Ethan

I'm surprised Ethan started this thread. Take his own products for instance. I purchased some Diffusors from him to put in my studio. I got them and opened the box. WTF?? These are made from cheap thin gauge metal (ring!!) and FOAM BOARD??? come on now..... over $600 EACH! I couldn't get rid of them fast enough.... got RPG diffusors made of real maple instead.... the only wood on Ethan's diffusors are a thin strip in the middle keeping them from falling apart! I can give him props though for taking them back with no questions asked. Cost me in shipping though.

From Bruce

Sadly it is true. From Dr. Toole's CEDIA presentation:

""Sometimes these (modular bass absorbers) are called "bass traps." The problem with the name is that some of them don't "trap" much of anything excpet cash from unwiiting purchasers."

From Amir

Reduce your checking account balance by $2,500.

From Ethan on the Galileo Speaker cells:

That could spark an agenda. A retaliation for criticism of him or his products.

 

[Gregadd]

Calculating the probalities fort his test represents a special case.
First you find the master. If you get A wrong you re finished. Secondly you find the second cleanest. If you get B wrong you are done. Then you find the third cleanest. If you get C wrong it is done. If you get the first three right you get D right by default.
For our first choice we have 4 choices. For our second choice we have 3 choices. For our 3rd choice we have 2. Our fourth choice is by default.

Success by guessing is unlikely. But of course anyone getting it right must be a "lucky coin."

I have posted the math on this previously.

B]Note to mathematicians:[/B] The following discussion of probability is deliberately simplified to consider only binomial and normal distributions with a probability of 0.5, the presumed probability of success in the experiments in question. I decided that presenting and discussing the equations for arbitrary probability would only decrease the probability that readers would persevere and arrive at an understanding of the fundamentals of probability theory.

 

[FrantzM]

On the subject of how effective the material boght by Bruce was all I saw was his complaint about the construction material ... which is fine but does that deter on the effectiveness of the item itself... I don't know nor am I saying that it works, still, the complaint about its construction can't imply its lack of effectiveness.

Now rather than attacking a point posted by a person or showing how wrong he is we are attacking him personally .. New low for the forum, ad hominem has become the preferred debate tactics ... How low are we willing to go? I am watching carefully.

 

[Gregadd]

If you are referring to my post Frantz, the issue is not whether the claims were true. In fact ,if they were false that makes them more insulting and greater grounds for revenge. Could you be percieved as being neutral after reciveing such comments from the person you seek to test?

As for ad hominem attacks...Through no fault of your own you lack the information to make that argument.

Edit:Frantz let's supose I called you stupid. You repleid, No I'm not. Then I said okay, take this test and prove it. How would you react?

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Not sure this line of conduct wil lead to much. One of the foremost reasons why this is by a long shot the only Audiophile forum I frequent is the balance that has been the hallmark of the WBF, that and maybe the fact it was founded by two people, I like and respect and a group of people I grew to like and some of them to befriend. The current line of posting are direct attacks upon the person of an individual not toward what he/she posts and I can't wrap myself upon continued discussion in this thread's present, toxic atmosphere.
Allow me to bow as gracefully as I can and expecting to see more worthwhile threads .. I am around .. This forum still has a lot to offer.. We will have to watch ourselves a lot more. I am sure we all can do better...

 

[Ron Party]

Ron, you're deluding yourself. This is the internet and these people have an agenda, hidden or not.

Hi Myles. WRT your first sentence, thanks for the compliment.

WRT to the second, irrelevant. Please don't act like your or anyone else's (including mine) you know what don't stink. All of us have an agenda.

The topic is not Ethan. The topic is not me. The topic is not Amir, jkeny (thanks, by the way, John, for your latest contribution to this thread - it was extremely helpful), or you. So please, get over it.

Discuss the post, not the poster. The topic is whether you, me, or anyone else has the discriminatory hearing ability.

I posted what I thought was a solution to the problem. Twice. No one has replied. I am anything but delusional. If you or anyone has a better solution, then for heaven's sake please offer it up.

So I again raise the question. Is one honestly interested in finding out for oneself if one has the requisite hearing acuity? Or is one satisfied with an on-going, humiliating, personal grudge match.

And you're going to make a decision based on what you hear on your computer speakers. Now that's a reliable test. If it sounded good on computer speakers, I'd run the other way.

Asked and answered. Use headphones. Connect your computer to your stereo. Burn CDs.

Steve, I concur: Frantz, nice post.

 

[Steve williams]

Hi guys

I just returned from the club for my daily workout and after reading a few posts in this and another thread is causing me to burn more calories than my usual routine

Frantz' post is right to the point and is blatantly correct. Ad hominem attacks just won't be tolerated. It never ceases to amaze me how this hobby can bring out the worst in people. Let's continue to challenge the post, not the poster and keep the cheap shots out

Long and the short of it is I want to learn too so let's get back to the OP and stay on topic because it's far too hot right now in Southern California where I live (107) to endure any further heat from such silly attacks on people

 

[Ron Party]

107! I'm going to let my son know what he is in for!

 

[Steve williams]

107! I'm going to let my son know what he is in for!

yesterday at noon when I was on my home the thermometer in my car read 117 !!!

and both our AC's are down.

 

[Ron Party]

You need to take a drive over to Newport Beach and get wet!

I'm in Kahana right now where it is a pleasant 80 planning our next boat dive.

 

[Steve williams]

we're going into Laguna tonight where it'll be cooler by the ocean

 

[Steve williams]

You need to take a drive over to Newport Beach and get wet!

I'm in Kahana right now where it is a pleasant 80 planning our next boat dive.

Make sure you eat at Roy's in Kahana. Seafood is always excellent

 

[Ethan Winer]

A retaliation for criticism of him or his products.

Thank you so much for repeating a totally bogus (and hostile and unwarranted) criticism of my company's products. You do realize that claiming a highly damped metal frame rings is ridiculous, yes?

Now rather than attacking a point posted by a person or showing how wrong he is we are attacking him personally .. New low for the forum, ad hominem has become the preferred debate tactics ... How low are we willing to go?

Exactly.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I posted what I thought was a solution to the problem. Twice. No one has replied.

Sorry, I should have replied. Yes, I absolutely welcome a set of files posted by Amir. It's very tricky to do such a test! And tedious. But I have every confidence that Amir will do it correctly if he's willing.

--Ethan

 

[Gregadd]

Thank you so much for repeating a totally bogus (and hostile and unwarranted) criticism of my company's products. You do realize that claiming a highly damped metal frame rings is ridiculous, yes?

Ethan go back and read the posts. You never denied what Bruce said about returning your product. I recall sayng I did not know whether your or Amir were correct about BassTraps.. The only comment I made was it was unfair to call someones product "snake oi"l As you often do. It's unfair to you and it is unfair to otherst. In any event it is a very long thread where you had ample opportunnity to make all your points in defense of your product.
Being the subjeect of negative comments creates a conflict of interest. The comment need not be true. I deal with bias on a dialy basis. If you like I could send you some articles on the subject.

I've said all I have to say on this thread.

 

[Ron Party]

Make sure you eat at Roy's in Kahana. Seafood is always excellent

Roy's moved within the last year. Now they're next to the golf course in Kaanapali. We're going on Saturday.