DAC architecture reimagined - the Cascade DAC

[Daniel Gullman]

Here is a more detailed look inside the new Cascade for those interested.

 

[LeoMarvin]

I see exactly what you are saying, and I am sure it feels unfair. Again, sorry this is the case for you specifically. To clarify, this is based on idea that you "should" trade the Reference DAC in now. As stated, this 50% is price protection for the long term, not to cycle new products year by year. Selling used, people will pay much more than the retail of a New Premier DAC for a used Reference DAC if you want to move it quickly. If you keep the DAC long enough, that 50% will become much more attractive. That being said, selling on the open market will give you the best value, not a 25K loss. That used market will also be boosted that even after more time the Reference DAC has a minimum value it can hit. At some point, many years later, it can be sold as a token and used to upgrade... I am sure the next owner will be very happy to have

I see exactly what you are saying, and I am sure it feels unfair. Again, sorry this is the case for you specifically. To clarify, this is based on idea that you "should" trade the Reference DAC in now. As stated, this 50% is price protection for the long term, not to cycle new products year by year. Selling used, people will pay much more than the retail of a New Premier DAC for a used Reference DAC if you want to move it quickly. If you keep the DAC long enough, that 50% will become much more attractive. That being said, selling on the open market will give you the best value, not a 25K loss. That used market will also be boosted that even after more time the Reference DAC has a minimum value it can hit. At some point, many years later, it can be sold as a token and used to upgrade... I am sure the next owner will be very happy to have it.

I hope the program is rethought some for Reference and Select owners. Seems logical that the unintended consequence of the new program, as currently defined, would be that Reference and Select owners are unlikely to become future Cascade or Sentinal owners. This may simply be part of the calculus, but I don’t know how many new 100-250K DAC customers are going to be entering the market. The used market is already starting to speak to Reference and Select product owners. The MSB announcements and policy will help establish recalibrated Reference and Select DAC values almost overnight. 50 percent may sadly already be a “good deal” for the top tier products. I’m also just not sure how this is an isolated situation for an owner or two. What current Reference or Select DAC owner isn’t now in this same surprisingly diminished value position? Those who have committed and invested the most have now lost the most. I don’t see how future loyalty from the Reference and Select customers can reasonably be expected with this policy as it is.

 

[bryans]

@LeoMarvin Very valid points in my opinion.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

@LeoMarvin Very valid points in my opinion.

Agreed. We are not so callous to ignore thoughtful feedback from everyone here and during the Munich show. So thanks to everyone sticking to their guns

So, to update everyone here, we have come to a resolution. The specific trade in values has been removed from our website, because it bypassed and ignored the potential service and support of our excellent dealers. Instead, we will first and foremost allow the dealer who is familiar with our product and customers to evaluate on a case by case basis. They can apply the proper context, where as, a unilateral company policy cannot. At that point, they will get in touch with us to decide what to do. We have also worked out a better refurbishment program so they can be more effective in selling the second hand units that are traded in.

The result. Your recent Reference DAC can now be valued by the dealer and MSB at it's true value based on the market, not an eventual trade in. The trade in policy has not changed, but now it is not defining the value of gear that exceeds those defined values. The dealers will be able to more easily sell the gear second hand and keep it in circulation bringing great experiences to someone new.

Like so many issues to resolve, context is key. Thanks for bringing this to our attention and we hope this helps!

 

[Googaliser]

I was curious why suddenly there were *lot's* of Select II's on the used market - question answered.
I have been a longterm admirer of MSB and was fortunate enough to acquire a Select II. By far the best digital I have ever heard. Am looking forward to one day upgrading to Cascade or Sentinel - something to look forward to. I do love the aesthetics of the select though - it's very organic - and prefer its looks if I'm honest - it has aged very well IMO - the sign of great industrial design.

Am really enjoying MSB's transparency and participation here - and the first time I have seen a new flagship at a cheaper price point than the one it succeeds. It's also a smart commercial move - eventually manufacturers will price themselves out, if things continued at the rate they were, and that is bad for everyone (trickle-down).

My best wishes for the team at MSB - and can't wait to hear the Cascade in due course.

 

[dodger0629]

Agreed. We are not so callous to ignore thoughtful feedback from everyone here and during the Munich show. So thanks to everyone sticking to their guns

So, to update everyone here, we have come to a resolution. The specific trade in values has been removed from our website, because it bypassed and ignored the potential service and support of our excellent dealers. Instead, we will first and foremost allow the dealer who is familiar with our product and customers to evaluate on a case by case basis. They can apply the proper context, where as, a unilateral company policy cannot. At that point, they will get in touch with us to decide what to do. We have also worked out a better refurbishment program so they can be more effective in selling the second hand units that are traded in.

The result. Your recent Reference DAC can now be valued by the dealer and MSB at it's true value based on the market, not an eventual trade in. The trade in policy has not changed, but now it is not defining the value of gear that exceeds those defined values. The dealers will be able to more easily sell the gear second hand and keep it in circulation bringing great experiences to someone new.

Like so many issues to resolve, context is key. Thanks for bringing this to our attention and we hope this helps!

Thank you Daniel for willing to look into and solve such "depreciation" issue. There are indeed some of the Digital Directors / DAC selling at only 50% of the MSRP....Hope the invisible hand helps revaluate based on this update.

 

[fbhifi]

Thank you Daniel for willing to look into and solve such "depreciation" issue. There are indeed some of the Digital Directors / DAC selling at only 50% of the MSRP....Hope the invisible hand helps revaluate based on this update.

Regretfully, the “invisible hand” will likely not be able to change the fact that used digital equipment, particularly models that have been replaced/discontinued, rarely sell for more than 50% of retail and usually considerably less.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

Thank you Daniel for willing to look into and solve such "depreciation" issue. There are indeed some of the Digital Directors / DAC selling at only 50% of the MSRP....Hope the invisible hand helps revaluate based on this update.

We shall see. Our dealers are doing their due diligence, but there is also an essential group of HiFi lovers who can play in this space and support us without worry over resale. That means some awesome second deals will be out there for others to benefit from. Our dealers should be able to assist with anyone who needs to recover more on the upgrade.

Regretfully, the “invisible hand” will likely not be able to change the fact that used digital equipment, particularly models that have been replaced/discontinued, rarely sell for more than 50% of retail and usually considerably less.

True enough, but we can hope it will still help others.

My best wishes for the team at MSB - and can't wait to hear the Cascade in due course.

Thank you for the kind words! The Select Design will always hold a special place in my heart. I have high hopes the Cascade will create a similar legacy. It looks really wonderful in person.

 

[bcurtis1959]

New DAC modules ?

 

[Daniel Gullman]

New DAC modules ?

Indeed. Very similar. The Cascade required new casework for the modules so we could populate the PCB underneath the individual modules. We were able to get the clock circuitry that much close to the ladders. Also, with the new motherboard we are able to put 4X the data through the DAC modules. If these are installed in a Reference or Select the will work, but the older gen motherboards are not able to handle the new data rates we have achieved in the Cascade.

 

[bcurtis1959]

Let me rephrase. Are the hybrid modules new?

 

[bcurtis1959]

Let me rephrase. Are the hybrid modules new?

Oops , you just answered. Thank you

 

[Googaliser]

I love the fact MSB are doubling down on getting the clock as close to the DAC modules a possible - whilst others persist in 'selling' the master clock in a different box. I don't want to start a brand war here - it's such a good thread - just something I noted.