Dangerous topic, so I'd like to be very specific...DCS Rossini vs. Otari (or any) Reel-to-Reel...real comparisons?

astrotoy

VIP/Donor
May 24, 2010
1,551
1,020
1,715
SF Bay Area
This question is for @astrotoy or anyone else with Otari experience. I have a MX5050BII. Heads re-lapped by French, power supplies and such re furbished by me as well as direct out to a de Havilland. So, does the solidity and tape path of the Studer A80, A820 etc. with internal electronics still trump the Otari with the de Havilland every time? I know the answer I'm sure----- but I'd love to hear about the qualitative differences for those with any experience. I am working on a scratch build pre pro that I think is at another level but its still in development.

Overall, I get the tape thing, however, the rabbit hole is far too deep, the software is just not that available and records are just too plentiful I have a significant investment in vinyl . In today's world digital just makes too much sense and is can be far less expensive than a top vinyl rig for outstanding performance and way less fuss than vinyl and certainly tape. One thing is for certain all these machines can be considered an electro mechanical mess after all these years regardless of physical condition. They all need " qualified" professional help at this stage in their lives.
I don't have experience with the de Havilland, but have heard good things about it. My Ampex ATR-102's have great record electronics, but the playback can be improved with a top quality external tape preamp, like the Doshi or Merrill. I've never owned a Studer so can't comment on those studio models. I am getting Tim Leinbaugh's new tape preamp for my daughter's Otari, and will have Tim ship it to me, so I can compare with my Otari (using his conversion kit to get a direct tape output). Tim's tape preamp is priced about the same as the de Havilland and could be a real bargain for those who want to do a conversion to an external tape preamp at a very reasonable price. I'll report back when that is all done.

Larry
 

audioguy1958

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2015
139
45
160
Unfortunately you can't compare an Otari MX5050 BII with a Studer + external preamp. The sound quality with a great tape setup is extraordinary. I have both, and some other decks. Trust me, its not a fair comparison.

I find the big difference is the absence of compression, the wide bandwidth and dynamics that well recorded tape has over any digital recording. The problem we have in discussing these differences is that we're using apples and oranges to compare everything. DACS, clocks, cables, refurbished tape decks and custom tape preamps. You really have to hear tape and digital in the same system with reference level equipment. A few forum members here seem to have these systems, Ron R. e.g. I don't have what I would consider reference level digital equipment yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Parsons

rhd1953

Member
Apr 23, 2021
9
4
8
70
I still don't really see your interest in tape.
I've been taping since 1972, on reel to reel, simply to have "playlists" I could listen to. Mostly compilations of various songs, or sometime several complete albums which I could then listen to without playing dozens of records. Also, once I had carefully adjusted the recording level for each song on tape, I could copy to cassett tape (for in the car) and later to cd (again, for in the car).
I haven't used tape since 1994, it's much simpler to digitize to wav. Also reel to reel is extremely expensive now, compared to what it was in the 1970's and 1980's. Servicing is very limited (back then, in Phoenix I had a pro audio center service my tape decks). I now stream playlists from my pc. But I do have to edit each wav file sound level for smooth listening (yep a separate directory of adjusted wav files).
One thing that hasn't changed is re-recording from records or re-ripping cds when there's cartridge upgrades or software/hardware ripping upgrades.
 

Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
101
80
133
Ohio
If the first comment was to me, it's a fair one. My interest in tape is a couple-fold. First, I've had a number of folks that say they feel when well-done, it's often even better than vinyl, and of course there are the folks that also feel vinyl sounds better, on average, than digital. I heard on a couple occasions on a couple systems, some digitally-sourced tape recordings that really sounded quite good on more modest systems, and that intrigued me as well. I heard a Studer with the same tape as I heard my player, and I didn't hear a difference on the guy's system...that surprised and confused me from my reading.

In my case, I love to have different sources to have great data points for comparison as I make upgrades, as I get new vinyl, as I explore new albums digitally that I might want to get on vinyl. Some if my interest is merely for the science and curiosity aspects as well. The last and dumbest reason is I like looking at the big tape player sitting there on the rack and it's fun to experiment with.
 

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2019
2,933
2,403
350
Parsons. I had the exact same experience as you. I got a 5050 and some nice tapes but it wasn't some sort of magic. Your tapes have to be real. But also, you have to have your playback head wired to an external preamp. No matter how much a guy tells you the Otari are great. They were used to make production tapes from the master etc. etc. etc. I'm sorry, they are not.
Tim Leinbaugh of music technology makes an external tape preamp that is as plug and play as can be. Its night and day in performance. 10 seconds and you will realize what a wholesale upgrade in performance it makes to tape playback.

The Otari handle tape very well. Its solid and runs with no issues. But its internal electronics are blaaa. Get the external preamp and then tell us what you hear. It will be a game changer. .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Parsons
Jan 31, 2022
2
2
5
"Dangerous" topic indeed. This entire story sounds suspiciously identical to the thread by that character calling himself "Amirm", over at (the dubious) ASR.

The webmaster there is a well-known sock puppet troll in the online audio community by the name of Neil Peter Rudish of St. Clair Shores, Michigan. He contracts for a dodgy I.T. PR firm called Wildcat Media Group and, is basically, responsible for supplying 60% of fake web traffic to the Hoffman Forum. This character Rudish is also the webmaster for: "PS Audio"; "A&M Corner"; "52nd St. Jazz"; "Rudy's Corner"; "Yellowjackets.com" (some obscure 80s Fusion group); "JamesDarren.com"; and a site dedicated to Rudy Van Gelder's discography. He's got completely FAKE email addresses scattered throughout: Pittsburgh; Cleveland; Detroit; Boulder; Santa Fé; and Seattle.

No matter if he calls himself "Parsons"; "Rudy"; "Max Buck"; "MakeMineVinyl"; "Brasil Nut"; "JOv2"; "Rudolf Appel"; "Kurt in Cleveland"; "Rudy Badelic"; "Classic Car Guy"; "Bobberman"; "Jazz Dré"; "Jazz Nut"; or (I'm sure) ANOTHER 100 auto-generated names he's got, this guy's activity is OUTRIGHT DIGITAL FRAUD and his credibility is non-existent because it's completely dependent upon who's PAYING HIM TO SHILL FOR THEIR PRODUCT.

I would haul him into court in a second for it.
 

Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
101
80
133
Ohio
Not sure how to respond to that accusation other than simply to state that in my case you're dead wrong. This is/was a legitimate question from me and I have nothing to do with those names or other posts you're referencing.

On a personal level I find ASR to largely be a joke, mostly with folks who have never actually heard (or even seen in the flesh) any of the products they like to condemn through their "science." So that's perhaps what's more offensive about your post.

Please don't lump me or this post into your conspiracy.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
2,181
691
1,200
Alto, NM
"Dangerous" topic indeed. This entire story sounds suspiciously identical to the thread by that character calling himself "Amirm", over at (the dubious) ASR.

The webmaster there is a well-known sock puppet troll in the online audio community by the name of Neil Peter Rudish of St. Clair Shores, Michigan. He contracts for a dodgy I.T. PR firm called Wildcat Media Group and, is basically, responsible for supplying 60% of fake web traffic to the Hoffman Forum. This character Rudish is also the webmaster for: "PS Audio"; "A&M Corner"; "52nd St. Jazz"; "Rudy's Corner"; "Yellowjackets.com" (some obscure 80s Fusion group); "JamesDarren.com"; and a site dedicated to Rudy Van Gelder's discography. He's got completely FAKE email addresses scattered throughout: Pittsburgh; Cleveland; Detroit; Boulder; Santa Fé; and Seattle.

No matter if he calls himself "Parsons"; "Rudy"; "Max Buck"; "MakeMineVinyl"; "Brasil Nut"; "JOv2"; "Rudolf Appel"; "Kurt in Cleveland"; "Rudy Badelic"; "Classic Car Guy"; "Bobberman"; "Jazz Dré"; "Jazz Nut"; or (I'm sure) ANOTHER 100 auto-generated names he's got, this guy's activity is OUTRIGHT DIGITAL FRAUD and his credibility is non-existent because it's completely dependent upon who's PAYING HIM TO SHILL FOR THEIR PRODUCT.

I would haul him into court in a second for it.
Who are you? I see you became a member two days ago and this is your first post on this forum. For what reason? I reread Parson's posts and see absolutely no evidence that he is a shill or anything else to justify your rant. Please provide irrefutable proof (and not speculation) that your accusations are accurate. FYI, Amir was banned from WBF several years ago.
 
Last edited:

Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
101
80
133
Ohio
I'll be even more clear in my response in hopes of ensuring no one thinks I posted some loaded BS question because I was paid by someone with a financial interest in a piece of gear. It's such a stupid supposition I can't even believe I'm justifying it with a second response let alone a first, but here it is regardless.

I have an audio friend who is very into analog but has never himself owned reel-to-reel. His extensive reading across many international forums led him to believe strong reel-to-reel was going to fairly easily sound better than very strong digital, and the same reading convinced him that tape will beat strong vinyl as well. His research has proven to have had merit on dozens of topics for me, but I don't ever believe in absolutes, recognizing there are literally hundreds of variables in statements that general.

But I am intellectually and musically curious, probably to a fault. I did a decent amount of research myself, and after considering RTR for literally 3 years, and after hearing it in a couple systems myself, my buddy finally pushed me to make some calls, then make a 3 hour drive to what I'm sure is a very reputable reel-to-reel refurbisher. I spent a number of hours in his shop talking, listening, asking a ton of dumb questions. Hours later I spent about $3500 on my Otari, which was probably in the mid-range of what he refurbed and sold cost-wise. We talked about the opportunity for external tape pre-amps, but he assured me I would be super happy with my RTR purchase even as is. At no point did he state nor imply how it might compare to my digital that he had never heard, which I appreciated. As I think I stated earlier, I also heard a Studer (which he said he would reluctantly sell me) in his same system with the same source tape, and I didn't really think it sounded very different (not enough for my justifying a 3x cost for my first RTR machine).

It would have been amazing if a $3500 RTR blew my mind over what is probably a $50K or higher total digital chain (when you add servers, switches, external clocks, cables, power conditioning, and the DAC itself). The Otari sounds very good. It just didn't blow my mind vs. my digital. Some of the used tapes I bought sounded terrible, some sounded mediocre, some sounded great. I bought a couple original recordings. One sounded really good.

My friend believed my findings, but suggested that perhaps I was still missing something. Hence my original post here with the question. In fairness, it does seem that I overlooked the importance of a serious tape pre--something that makes total sense to me now, thanks to a number of folks on this thread.

I included the word "dangerous" as I sure as hell didn't want an analog vs. digital BS situation. I also mentioned the specific brands I currently own and was comparing in order to avoid the chance of someone feeling the need to say "my $20K Studer sounds so much better than the $500 DAC my buddy likes." This forum doesn't have a lot of posts like that, but I hope you get my point.

Here's a photo from tonight with my Otari flanking one side of my preamp and several DACs flanking the other side, including my DCS. I paid my own hard-earned money for everything, and I've never been paid to write something about any of it. My wife probably wishes that wasn't the case.

IMG_6938.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zeotrope

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
578
680
108
57
I started with an MX-5050, and later changed to a Nagra T-Audio, refurbished by Nagra Switzerland. Those were the days when hardly anyone wanted R2R, and I was making concert recordings with a Nagra IV-S. I also built a balanced-differential tube preamp for the playback head, before any of the commercial tape head preamps were available except the Manley. Studio machines tend to have excellent mechanics but mediocre sounding (but accurate) playback electronics, since they were not meant for audiophiles. The MX-5050 was competent, but the professional machines are at a totally different level. Kind of like me playing tennis with Nadal.
I never invested much in digital, since the technology changes too quickly. I also have a system that can take full advantage of the dynamics of R2R tapes, being a multi-way horn system with field coil drivers and electronic crossover. The problem with digital music is not the digital per se, but how the material was mastered. Most commercially available digital music is compressed and manipulated to death. The problem with R2R is, of course, the lack of software. This is not as much of a problem for me, as I have dozens of session masters that I have made over the years, mainly of orchestral concerts but also some chamber music. I also have access to straight copies of production or safety masters of commercial recordings from companies such as Decca, EMI/HMV, RCA and Mercury. Most of these masters were copied from the edited work parts with some equalization to correct faults, but in those days, they did not apply compression or dynamic limiting (though sometimes they did gain riding). That means these tapes tend to have very wide dynamic range, and sound very transparent due to the lack of manipulation. Some tapes from the mid-70s onwards had Dolby A, and I find the earlier tapes from pre-Dolby days usually more transparent.
The problem with digital, in my opinion, is that those recordings made during the 80s and early 90s using redbook CD standard are quite limited in their potential, and even a great mastering engineer is quite limited in what he can do. That means, you are restricted to materials that were recorded in the past 15 years, or analogue recordings that were digitalised during the same period. And to be frank, very few new recordings made in the past 2 decades can compare with recordings made during the 1960s and 70s, at least for classical, with great engineers such as Kenneth Wilkinson, Gordon Perry, Robert C. Fine, Lewis Layton, Christopher Parker etc. That means for digiphiles who like classical, they have to rely on reissues that can be quite spotty in quality. Therefore, I think R2R is indispensable for people who listen mainly to classical recordings made from the mid-50s to the late 70s, if they have access to these tapes. For reference, listen to some of the RCA tape issues from Analogue Productions, the Decca issues from the Tape Project etc. There will be a new source for EMI/HMV recordings coming straight from Abbey Road Studios soon, as well as from the archives of Propius in Sweden. For digital, you can get close to the same experience with rare transfers such as the DSD file of the Mercury Dorati Firebird, for example. I am sometimes still gobsmacked when I put on some of these master tapes, such as a few days ago when I put on the Decca Ansermet Three Cornered Hat. I have yet to find a good digital transfer for this one. Another one that is utterly crazy is a copy of the production master of the 1955 Munch Symphonie Fantastique, used to produce the original 2-track commercial pre-recorded tape. That recording was not available in stereo LP when first released, since stereo LPs were not invented back then. Hopefully, Analogue Productions will get to some of these early stereo tapes, but I don't know the current condition of the original master tapes. AP has recently done a tape reissue using a safety master, so hopefully, they will be able to find a decent enough copy.
 

Parsons

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2018
101
80
133
Ohio
I started with an MX-5050, and later changed to a Nagra T-Audio, refurbished by Nagra Switzerland. Those were the days when hardly anyone wanted R2R, and I was making concert recordings with a Nagra IV-S. I also built a balanced-differential tube preamp for the playback head, before any of the commercial tape head preamps were available except the Manley. Studio machines tend to have excellent mechanics but mediocre sounding (but accurate) playback electronics, since they were not meant for audiophiles. The MX-5050 was competent, but the professional machines are at a totally different level. Kind of like me playing tennis with Nadal.
I never invested much in digital, since the technology changes too quickly. I also have a system that can take full advantage of the dynamics of R2R tapes, being a multi-way horn system with field coil drivers and electronic crossover. The problem with digital music is not the digital per se, but how the material was mastered. Most commercially available digital music is compressed and manipulated to death. The problem with R2R is, of course, the lack of software. This is not as much of a problem for me, as I have dozens of session masters that I have made over the years, mainly of orchestral concerts but also some chamber music. I also have access to straight copies of production or safety masters of commercial recordings from companies such as Decca, EMI/HMV, RCA and Mercury. Most of these masters were copied from the edited work parts with some equalization to correct faults, but in those days, they did not apply compression or dynamic limiting (though sometimes they did gain riding). That means these tapes tend to have very wide dynamic range, and sound very transparent due to the lack of manipulation. Some tapes from the mid-70s onwards had Dolby A, and I find the earlier tapes from pre-Dolby days usually more transparent.
The problem with digital, in my opinion, is that those recordings made during the 80s and early 90s using redbook CD standard are quite limited in their potential, and even a great mastering engineer is quite limited in what he can do. That means, you are restricted to materials that were recorded in the past 15 years, or analogue recordings that were digitalised during the same period. And to be frank, very few new recordings made in the past 2 decades can compare with recordings made during the 1960s and 70s, at least for classical, with great engineers such as Kenneth Wilkinson, Gordon Perry, Robert C. Fine, Lewis Layton, Christopher Parker etc. That means for digiphiles who like classical, they have to rely on reissues that can be quite spotty in quality. Therefore, I think R2R is indispensable for people who listen mainly to classical recordings made from the mid-50s to the late 70s, if they have access to these tapes. For reference, listen to some of the RCA tape issues from Analogue Productions, the Decca issues from the Tape Project etc. There will be a new source for EMI/HMV recordings coming straight from Abbey Road Studios soon, as well as from the archives of Propius in Sweden. For digital, you can get close to the same experience with rare transfers such as the DSD file of the Mercury Dorati Firebird, for example. I am sometimes still gobsmacked when I put on some of these master tapes, such as a few days ago when I put on the Decca Ansermet Three Cornered Hat. I have yet to find a good digital transfer for this one. Another one that is utterly crazy is a copy of the production master of the 1955 Munch Symphonie Fantastique, used to produce the original 2-track commercial pre-recorded tape. That recording was not available in stereo LP when first released, since stereo LPs were not invented back then. Hopefully, Analogue Productions will get to some of these early stereo tapes, but I don't know the current condition of the original master tapes. AP has recently done a tape reissue using a safety master, so hopefully, they will be able to find a decent enough copy.

Great points all around. You are very clearly in the position to get the absolute most out of the medium, which is awesome and enviable from my end.

You are absolutely right that digital, too, has all the media limitations you spelled out.

In spite of this, I somewhat mentally tried to move past this fact in order to make the most of what we can all agree are "limited" recordings and less-than-ideal masterings, and then even further compressed files (in some cases). If you can accept that much/most/almost all of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of albums available digitally will most likely have some or all of these flaws, you can set your mind to building a system that will minimize the impacts of these flaws (as much as possible) and still present an insanely musical presentation, even with fairly low bit-rate streaming at the extreme. Of course the trade-offs are there, but real-time access to what is almost limitless music from all genres, to me, is absolutely worth the time, money and SQ trade-offs (in most cases).

This can exist side-by-side with great analog sources, of course. In those cases a lot of this digital is certainly not "better" than if it were available on a better analog medium (or even a better digital medium). But, it can still sound truly amazing in the right set-up. And of course, for periods where there is literally no analog recording or analog media available, it's not even a choice if you want to listen to it at all. I'm most surprised by how amazing streaming live music can sound--even from sources like YouTube (I never would have guessed this even 3-5 years ago). Those recordings will most likely never be available even in downloadable digital files, so making them sound amazing and emotional is actually insanely exciting and rewarding to me. And there is new music literally every day in that media. Covid home-recordings are great examples of music all of us would miss otherwise.

Having said all that, I do also thoroughly enjoy the search for new, clean analog material...especially stuff not available digitally.

I spent the 90s driving around in a Jeep Wrangler, often with the top off, listening to much of the music of that era through crummy factory speakers and insane road/wind noise. Much to my surprise decades later, listening to a lot of that same "grunge" music played back digitally today, I'm often shocked at how much I can hear, even deep in the recording. To your point, much of the magic of the musicians was probably never captured in the recording in the first place, for the reasons you stated, but nonetheless I still find myself surprised at how good it can still truly sound (all things relative!).

And while you may not have the interest to do all the digital crud I just mentioned, I have no doubt your system is up for it. I have some theater-era full-range field coils (updated, but quite old nonetheless) and I have to say that playing music that was recorded yesterday and digitally streamed to me through parts of a playback system that is 70 to 80 years old is pretty cool and sometimes mind-blowing.

These goals and approaches aren't in contradiction to each other but can in fact be very complimentary in order to maximize our enjoyment of the reproduction of recorded music.

And if you know where I can get my hands on a Radiohead analog source tape, please don't hesitate to forward them my way!

Thanks for your reply.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gds7368

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
578
680
108
57
Great points all around. You are very clearly in the position to get the absolute most out of the medium, which is awesome and enviable from my end.

You are absolutely right that digital, too, has all the media limitations you spelled out.

In spite of this, I somewhat mentally tried to move past this fact in order to make the most of what we can all agree are "limited" recordings and less-than-ideal masterings, and then even further compressed files (in some cases). If you can accept that much/most/almost all of the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of albums available digitally will most likely have some or all of these flaws, you can set your mind to building a system that will minimize the impacts of these flaws (as much as possible) and still present an insanely musical presentation, even with fairly low bit-rate streaming at the extreme. Of course the trade-offs are there, but real-time access to what is almost limitless music from all genres, to me, is absolutely worth the time, money and SQ trade-offs (in most cases).

This can exist side-by-side with great analog sources, of course. In those cases a lot of this digital is certainly not "better" than if it were available on a better analog medium (or even a better digital medium). But, it can still sound truly amazing in the right set-up. And of course, for periods where there is literally no analog recording or analog media available, it's not even a choice if you want to listen to it at all. I'm most surprised by how amazing streaming live music can sound--even from sources like YouTube (I never would have guessed this even 3-5 years ago). Those recordings will most likely never be available even in downloadable digital files, so making them sound amazing and emotional is actually insanely exciting and rewarding to me. And there is new music literally every day in that media. Covid home-recordings are great examples of music you would miss otherwise.

Having said all that, I do also thoroughly also enjoy the search for new, clean analog material...especially stuff not available digitally.

I spent the 90s driving around in a Jeep Wrangler, often with the top off, listening to much of the music of that era through crummy factory speakers and insane road/wind noise. Much to my surprise decades later, listening to a lot of that same "grunge" music played back digitally today, I'm often shocked at how much I can hear, even deep in the recording. To your point, much of the magic of the musicians was probably never captured in the recording in the first place, for the reasons you stated, but nonetheless I still find myself surprised at how good it can still truly sound (all things relative!).

And while you may not have the interest to do all the digital crud I just mentioned, I have no doubt your system is up for it. I have some theater-era full-range field coils (updated, but quite old nonetheless) and I have to say that playing music that was recorded yesterday and digitally streamed to me through parts of a playback system that is 70 to 80 years old is pretty cool and sometimes mind-blowing.

These goals and approaches aren't in contradiction to each other but can in fact be very complimentary in order to maximize our enjoyment of the reproduction of recorded music.

And if you know where I can get my hands on a Radiohead analog source tape, please don't hesitate to forward them my way!

Thanks for your reply.
Indeed, each medium has its own merits. And of course, one does not need perfect sonics to enjoy a performance. Many people find certain vintage recordings on 78s emotionally moving. If you have the means to acquire a good R2R setup, and to be able to find your favorite music in this format, it is very worthwhile, but it does not make listening to digital any less so.
 

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2019
2,933
2,403
350
Parsons, you have to get the external preap for a direct head out playback. You have a $3000 machine. I got the same story by Gene on how great the electronics in my Otari are. In truth they are marginal at best. The machine handles tape just fine. It would be better with a library rewind. The heads are decent to good. You have to have the head wired to an external preamp. Get the Music Technology unit. It cost less than the machine. If you don't get an external premp for an Otari, you are wasting your money on premium tapes. You will not hear what the tape has to give.

You spent years and tens of thousands (50k) tuning your digital. Now you plop a stock otari on a nightstand and compliant it does not satisfy??????? And what tape are you using. A 7.5 IPS of Carol King? My digital is better than that.

Good digital is very very nice. If I put one of my Steely Dan, Fleetwood Mac or other production master tapes up against digital, the tape is still better, but its not an OMG moment. But put my Mozart Concerto No 3 or 4 up against any other source, vinyl or digital and your jaw will drop. The violin comes alive like no other. It has actually led to deep deep dissatisfaction with my digital and a much more clear understanding of what is off with my vinyl playback. So much so I told a friend last night I might just step away from digital as a premium listening source. Use it to find music, entertain at parties, when cooking etc etc. But not to sit with a nice tequila and listen. The vinyl and tape on classical and old jazz hands down come to life.

FWIW, If I had $220K for a Wadax digital setup, I might change my tune.

Again, if your a James Taylor, Stones, Billy Joel guy, go digital. Digital plays pop, rock, country etc excellent. Tape plays classical and jazz greats excellent. Tape plays everything great if its set up well, but other sources close the gap on certain genre of music.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Solypsa

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,491
2,840
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Parsons, you have to get the external preap for a direct head out playback. You have a $3000 machine. I got the same story by Gene on how great the electronics in my Otari are. In truth they are marginal at bes
Telefunken M 10 was introduced in 1960 and the amps are probably from that era as well .
See how you can beat that with your Otari and " new external " pre amp , or super smooth digital
Telefunken and studer ( and ampex and others ) MADE authentic tape recording.
People disperse these old machines / and stock electronics very easily , but dont forget if it wasnt for these old names , there would nt be anything to talk about regarding tape quality






 
Last edited:

Kingrex

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2019
2,933
2,403
350
Telefunken M 10 was introduced in 1960 and the amps are probably from that era as well .
See how you can beat that with your Otari and " new external " pre amp , or super smooth digital
Telefunken and studer ( and ampex and others ) MADE authentic tape recording.
People disperse these old machines / and stock electronics very easily , but dont forget if it wasnt for these old names , there would nt be anything to talk about regarding tape quality

I don't get your point. I want an A80 myself to make mix tapes. An A80 stock might be better than my Otari. I don't know. My preamp is simple, but effective. Remote power supply to a NAB/IEC to a OTL preamp with NOS tubes. I think you would be surprised what it is capable of. Gene Walls rebuilt the drives, heads etc.. its a solid failure free workhorse. For the money a real sleeper.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,491
2,840
1,400
Amsterdam holland
I don't get your point. I want an A80 myself to make mix tapes. An A80 stock might be better than my Otari. I don't know. My preamp is simple, but effective. Remote power supply to a NAB/IEC to a OTL preamp with NOS tubes. I think you would be surprised what it is capable of. Gene Walls rebuilt the drives, heads etc.. its a solid failure free workhorse. For the money a real sleeper.
Good for you .
Stock studer A 80 s and telefunkens sound good right of the bet , they have the 60 70 s sound
I heard a gentleman complaining about tape sound but as stated before tape quality differs a lot .

I also agree on music i think tape shines less with electronic music .
I like it more with Jazz classical and also rock
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pacha

andromedaaudio

VIP/Donor
Jan 23, 2011
8,491
2,840
1,400
Amsterdam holland
Just want to remember that there is one measurable parameter that separates the usually called master recorders from the lesser machines - scrape flutter, due to the mechanical handling of tape. For information on this aspect, just google "Dale Manken" and "Fred Thale" in this forum or simply this WBF thread https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/do-different-tape-transports-sound-different.22018/
I cannot hear this with my speakers micro , you need horn speakers for that , lol
 

adrianywu

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2021
578
680
108
57
Converting a phono preamp to handle tape heads is not difficult. If you have an unused phono preamp in storage that you don't mind experimenting on, just go ahead. Most phono preamps let you adjust the gain, so you only need to work out the gain needed by measuring the output of your tape head using a reference tape. Look at the schematic of the preamp and work out roughly the value of the caps and resistors you need to replace the RIAA components with. The EQ is simpler than RIAA since it only has two corner frequencies (IEC/CCIR actually only states the high pass frequency, but the low pass must start somewhere. I usually assume around 25hz). Use trim pots and adjust using the reference tape until the different frequencies are aligned. You can then replace the pots with precision resistors, or leave them in place as I have. You also need to play around with input capacitor and resistor loading to get better HF extension. You should try to use the lowest capacitance cable possible to wire the head to your preamp. I just use a pair of twisted PTFE coated solid silver wires, since my preamp is balanced differential and noise is not a problem. Measure the head inductance if it is not published, and you can calculate roughly how much loading capacitance you need.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Audiophile Bill

Alrainbow

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2013
3,256
1,429
450
I desperately do NOT want to stroll anywhere near the dreaded Digital vs. Analog debate, but here is my reason for the post...

For the first time in 15 years I finally feel like I have my digital to a level that probably even exceeds what I had hoped was possible in digital--and even very specifically, streaming. And I'm sure that there are better digital front-ends than mine, but I'm sure mine is very good by standards that most of us on this forum would agree to. This forum was a big influence on WHAT I invested in.

I have wanted to get a reel-to-reel for years, and so I recently bought a fairly-refurbished and very clean Otari MX5050BII2. It was not inexpensive but I feel it was a fair value for what I got, and I was happy to pay what I paid for the seller interaction alone. I bought it from an extremely knowledgeable resource and I heard a number of machines including his personal Studer while there at his shop, with the same tapes on each. I am very confident in the quality of the machine I have and it's condition, and from what I heard and what he told me, I'm not sure I could have paid a LOT more and had grossly better playback, although I'm sure it's out there somewhere. But the recording and playback I'm getting I suspect to be a respectable level all things considered. It sounds outstanding, especially with fresh tape and good source.

Here's the rub. I don't love it as much as I love the sound of my digital. In short, I find myself wanting it to sound like my digital, and I had hoped it would be the other way around.

For those who have a top-level digital system AND a reel-to-reel, does this finding clearly disturb you enough that I should double back and triple back on my RTR setup and make sure everything is perfectly set up and adjusted? I have cleaned the crap out of it numerous times and as regularly as instructed. I have tried pre-recorded commercial releases, a master recording (albeit from the 90s), and fresh new-tape recordings I have made. I have listened TO MY ACTUAL DIGITAL running through the Otari, so I know the Otari electronics are not at issue.

I have a DCS Rossini with clock and Antipodes CX/EX server with a ton of externally clocked and isolated network gear, so I know the digital investment is easily 20x what I have the the RTR dollar-wise. Does that perhaps make it not a fair comparison?

Thoughts? I realize this is dangerous to open up, and this is the only forum I feel comfortable posting this on. I just want to know if my findings match the findings of others, or if I need to deep-dive my RTR situation further (or make a similarly large $ investment)?
Tape is far from from digital
For me it gets played before or after or what's played that day .
I can say I enjoy it for what it is
It does things digital don't . One thing you should try is tune the playback to match your digital
Sound . It might have a low and high freq eq to adjust . While I have and use tapes to tune freq to spec I do find my own adjustments are better. Also the the deck has volume controls for output . Use them this allows to adjust to best of your preamp and can add or detract wight of the playback sound . Not all tapes are eq to what you may like
I hope this helps
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johan K

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing