DarTZeel and Mcintosh - help in picking amp

[germinal]

Hello,

hope someone is able to help me in choosing the right amp.

I have been on a quest the last several weeks in picking an amp for my magnetostatic speakers from the small french company Diptyque. DP-160.

I’m loving the speakers but still need to pick the amp.

I have been testing the following : Gryphon Diablo 300, Michi X5, mcintosh MA 12000, Kora TB-200, Kora TB-400, DarTZeel 8550 mk II…

after testing all these it was clear to me that the DarTZeel was by far the best amp but also by far the most expensive…23.000 euro and this is the price without phono input.

There was one amp left I wanted to try out but was a bit reluctant to do so. On the one hand because of the price, namely the MCintosh MA 352 is almost 1/3th of the price of the DarTZeel and on the other hand because the staff of the shop was laughing that I was even thinking about trying this crazy combo ( with the magnetostatic speakers ) and lastly because I didn’t like the mcintosh MA 12000 which is almost double the price compared tot the MA 352…

after doing some A/B tests I preferred the sound of the DarTZeel.. which came at no surprise to me.. still I wanted to be 100% sure there was no placebo effect at play, so I asked my wife to do some blind testing.. she would hook up the amp and I would listen to both am we did this 2 times.. just to be sure.. and both times I picked the MA 352 as best sounding amp while actually thinking it was the DarTZeel that I choose..

so basically my question is.. is there something wrong with my ears in choosing a 8000 euro amp over a 23.000 euro amp ??

and a more general question.. is there no relation between price/performance in the hifi world ? ???

I’m a bit confused, to say the least… if you read this far, thanks for your time

 

[dan31]

No problem. Both fine products.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

buy the McIntosh (as a darTZeel owner).

it seems you did your due diligence. and sure, there is a relationship between price and performance but it's tenuous at best.....in any case not universal and individual tastes and even choices of music enter into it. as well as amp/speaker synergy. even power grid can be a factor in judging.

we all have our opinions about possibilities of what went into your perceptions, but it seems you did things as right as you could.

 

[bryans]

There is nothing wrong with your ears in choosing the Mac gear. If it sounds good to you then it is good for you.

Now I do find it wrong that the staff at the shop was laughing at you.

 

[germinal]

buy the McIntosh (as a darTZeel owner).

…

Not completely happy with your choice ? I find amps too expensive to change after a few years.

The speakers I’m pretty sure about in the sense that I don’t understand why most people get dynamic (cone) speakers..
The amp not so much cause the mcintosh looks a bit tacky.. like a product you buy for the looks :s

ofcourse there are many other amps, but you can’t try em all.

we all have our opinions about possibilities of what went into your perceptions..

could you care to elaborate please ?

 

[bazelio]

I'm partial to the Dart. But I am curious to hear how you'd compare and contrast it to the Diablo as I've not yet heard that one.

PS there's likely nothing wrong with your ears. It's also great fun to do blind taste tests with whisky and watch people prefer the $50 bottle to the $500 bottle ... Usually only when blindfolded. A lot of things go in to a pricetag, not the least of which is hubris.

 

[andromedaaudio]

so basically my question is.. is there something wrong with my ears in choosing a 8000 euro amp over a 23.000 euro amp ??

No

 

[andromedaaudio]

and a more general question.. is there no relation between price/performance in the hifi world ? ???

Only to a certain extent .
Its a bit of a snobby business( like art ) in general which makes a big deal of small differences
Just follow your own ears but a highly resolving speaker is necessary to start with otherwise you cant make good judgement

 

[germinal]

I'm partial to the Dart. But I am curious to hear how you'd compare and contrast it to the Diablo as I've not yet heard that one.

PS there's likely nothing wrong with your ears. It's also great fun to do blind taste tests with whisky and watch people prefer the $50 bottle to the $500 bottle ... Usually only when blindfolded. A lot of things go in to a pricetag, not the least of which is hubris.

Well.. I found the Diablo a little harsh sometimes.. but keep in mind that I only had it in combination with magnetostatic speakers. They are very revealing and of itself rather on the harsh side when the recording is a bit harsh.. the Diablo seemed to exaggerate this aspect. I think if you connect the Diablo with “warmish” speakers t would make a great combo. Also when the speakers don’t have too much micro detail the Diablo is a great amp.. I found that the Diablo was maybe to most transparant amp listened to.. in combo with the magnetostatics a bit too much.. If this makes any sense

 

[germinal]

Looks like I am not alone.. maybe my ears aren’t that bad after all see the excerpt from whathifi.com.. basically saying that their 9000 pound cheaper amp is bluntly put : “better”

but surely an entry level mcinstosh amp cant be the best option.. can it ? Should I take a look at the mcintosh MC1502 ? And couple this with a streamer as pre-amp ?

maybe someone can point me to a warmish sounding amp that can drive magnetostatic speakers ?






from the review on whathifi.com


Lacks a little muscle
Yet despite being hugely capable, the CTH-8550 doesn't set new standards.

Its power output is healthy enough, but the amp never quite manages to pound out basslines or deliver midrange slam with the determination of something like our reference Bryston BP26/4BSST pre/power combo (which weighs in at £9000 less).

There's also an inability to swing large-scale dynamics with the required authority. For all its insight, the Dartzeel lacks a little muscle: if it had that, even this price tag would look reasonable.

Remember this is no off-the-shelf product. It's pretty much built to order, and built to the highest standards. That in itself explains part of the outlay.

However, we're not inclined to give this amp an unreserved recommendation, even if the price was acceptable.

Sure it sounds great, but there are areas of weaknesses, too. At this level kit shouldn't need any excuses. The CTH-8550 is almost magnificent, but at the price, almost isn't quite good enough.

 

[Thieliste]

Well.. I found the Diablo a little harsh sometimes.. but keep in mind that I only had it in combination with magnetostatic speakers. They are very revealing and of itself rather on the harsh side when the recording is a bit harsh.. the Diablo seemed to exaggerate this aspect. I think if you connect the Diablo with “warmish” speakers t would make a great combo. Also when the speakers don’t have too much micro detail the Diablo is a great amp.. I found that the Diablo was maybe to most transparant amp listened to.. in combo with the magnetostatics a bit too much.. If this makes any sense

That's true i also find my Diablo 300 to be very transparent and with my ultra revealing speakers if the recording is no so good it tends to be harsh in the treble region.
I'm starting to think about the Antileon Evo beeing a better match.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not completely happy with your choice ? I find amps too expensive to change after a few years.

i am thrilled with my choice, and have compared 'in-room' many wonderful alternatives over the years; my darTZeel's continue to get out of the way of the music on all types of music and deliver the whole of musical magic. i owned the 108 stereo darTZeel's from 2005-2012, the 458 darTZeel mono blocks from 2012-2018, and now the 468 mono blocks since then. of course, these views are based on my speakers, my system, and my ears.

could you care to elaborate please ?

only that it's natural for each amp brand owner to rationalize why another person somehow does not choose their brand while mostly keeping those thoughts to themselves. yet at the same time respect the listening conclusions of the poster. if/when you want us to third degree you on your methods and fine points we can do that.

you decided to post about your experience, and other's second guessing you had to be one result you would expect to get. it's how these things go.

 

[christoph]

maybe someone can point me to a warmish sounding amp that can drive magnetostatic speakers ?

I would give the Lamm M1.x Class A hybrid monos a listen.
My Lamm M1.1 drove my ex-Apogee 1 Ohm Scintillas with ease while sounding excellently. Easily the best of very many amps I tried on the Scintillas.
If you are also open to buying used, you can find them from time to time for an attractive price.
Iirc, @microstrip has a pair of Lamm M1.2 available

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Looks like I am not alone.. maybe my ears aren’t that bad after all see the excerpt from whathifi.com.. basically saying that their 9000 pound cheaper amp is bluntly put : “better”

but surely an entry level mcinstosh amp cant be the best option.. can it ? Should I take a look at the mcintosh MC1502 ? And couple this with a streamer as pre-amp ?

maybe someone can point me to a warmish sounding amp that can drive magnetostatic speakers ?

from the review on whathifi.com


Lacks a little muscle
Yet despite being hugely capable, the CTH-8550 doesn't set new standards.

Its power output is healthy enough, but the amp never quite manages to pound out basslines or deliver midrange slam with the determination of something like our reference Bryston BP26/4BSST pre/power combo (which weighs in at £9000 less).

There's also an inability to swing large-scale dynamics with the required authority. For all its insight, the Dartzeel lacks a little muscle: if it had that, even this price tag would look reasonable.

Remember this is no off-the-shelf product. It's pretty much built to order, and built to the highest standards. That in itself explains part of the outlay.

However, we're not inclined to give this amp an unreserved recommendation, even if the price was acceptable.

Sure it sounds great, but there are areas of weaknesses, too. At this level kit shouldn't need any excuses. The CTH-8550 is almost magnificent, but at the price, almost isn't quite good enough.

i believe the CTH-8550 has zero global feedback, like other darTZeel amplifiers. so it will never be the 'grunt' king. yet it will do wonderful tuneful bass. musically complete and balanced. the dart does excel at microdynamic energy, while not being best at the macro bass. it has a wonderful 'first watt'. it trades that uber slam attribute for nuance, finesse and long term listenability. it has 'flow' and liquidity. there is no 'sameness' artifact imposed over the music (tubeyness, softness or a solid state grain/glare) to eventually bore you. it does not impose any 'darkness' over the music. it gets out of the way.

it does not sound like solid state, or tubes. it sounds like music. so it comes down to where you are coming from, and where you are going.

it's easy to understand how other amps can legitimately sway a listener.

i'm not saying that other amps do not do the 'dart' type things to one degree or another. but to my ears not like the dart does.

just my 2 cents, YMMV.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have a tip if you also accept it used. Outsider Equipe 160 watt Class A mono amplifier. it was specially built for low-resistance electrostatic and magnetostatic loudspeakers. You can change the damping factor of this amplifier from 200 to 20000 with potentiometer.

Outsider Equipe (7717689324) | Gebrauchtgerät | Transistor-Endverstärker | Angebot auf audio-markt.de

Angeboten wird „Equipe“ von Outsider als Gebrauchtgerät aus der Kategorie „Transistor-Endverstärker“ bei audio-markt.de - dem Online-Marktplatz für High-End. Das Inserat mit der Nummer 7717689324 endet am 02.02.2023 um 06:29 Uhr.

www.audio-markt.de

 

[germinal]

i am thrilled with my choice, and have compared 'in-room' many wonderful alternatives over the years; my darTZeel's continue to get out of the way of the music on all types of music and deliver the whole of musical magic. i owned the 108 stereo darTZeel's from 2005-2012, the 458 darTZeel mono blocks from 2012-2018, and now the 468 mono blocks since then. of course, these views are based on my speakers, my system, and my ears.

only that it's natural for each amp brand owner to rationalize why another person somehow does not choose their brand while mostly keeping those thoughts to themselves. yet at the same time respect the listening conclusions of the poster. if/when you want us to third degree you on your methods and fine points we can do that.

you decided to post about your experience, and other's second guessing you had to be one result you would expect to get. it's how these things go.

Actually I wanted the blind test to show me that I prefer the Dartzeel.. that the more expensive and better looking ( serious ) amp also sounded best for me… In all honesty the MA352 looks like a toy.. unfortunately it appears I don’t prefer the Dartzeel. considering the price difference I found it odd that actually seem to prefer ( blind tested ) the cheap(er) toy.. that was the reason for my post..

I was expecting reactions criticising my ears and or experience or lack thereof.. stating that more expensive is better and that my ears are shit

 

[germinal]

i believe the CTH-8550 has zero global feedback, like other darTZeel amplifiers. so it will never be the 'grunt' king. yet it will do wonderful tuneful bass. musically complete and balanced. the dart does excel at microdynamic energy, while not being best at the macro bass. it has a wonderful 'first watt'. it trades that uber slam attribute for nuance, finesse and long term listenability. it has 'flow' and liquidity. there is no 'sameness' artifact imposed over the music (tubeyness, softness or a solid state grain/glare) to eventually bore you. it does not impose any 'darkness' over the music. it gets out of the way.

it does not sound like solid state, or tubes. it sounds like music. so it comes down to where you are coming from, and where you are going.

it's easy to understand how other amps can legitimately sway a listener.

i'm not saying that other amps do not do the 'dart' type things to one degree or another. but to my ears not like the dart does.

just my 2 cents, YMMV.

Thats a response I was expecting

I come from nothing really.. used to have a mid-fi system 20 years back.. but never had the space/money for a serious system before.. so building from scratch..

That’s why it hard spending trice on an amp when for me it doesn’t sound better ( read : more engaging ) but I am well aware that maybe.. a few months or maybe years down the road I might start regret getting the cheaper Mac because it colours too much.. then again who knows.. we can’t look into the future

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Actually I wanted the blind test to show me that I prefer the Dartzeel.. that the more expensive and better looking ( serious ) amp also sounded best for me… In all honesty the MA352 looks like a toy.. unfortunately it appears I don’t… considering the price difference I found it odd that Inprefer the cheap(er) toy.. that was the reason for my post..

I was expecting reactions criticising my ears and or experience or lack thereof..

the test that matters is a week of listening to both; which one do you not want to not stop listening to? which gets old? makes you forget you are listening to reproduced music?

3 years ago i purchased a set of Lamm SET's, and borrowed a set of VAC Statement 450's, and for 3-4 months went back and forth between those two and my darTZeel's. any of the three sets of amazing amps could bowl me over on particular music and it would be hard at that moment to think of any other amp. especially the ML3 Lamm's. yet extended listening to all three for long periods eventually i could see that in my particular system and to my ears the Lamm and VAC were holding back my full enjoyment of lots of my musical connection compared to my darts. i would often be reminded i was listening to an amplifier. not with the darts.

a quick hit A/B does not really allow for that part, which i view as by far the most important part. i'm a guy who seriously listens over 30 hours a week.

 

[wil]

Germinal, It can be difficult when making a decision which should be based on how it sounds, when one is visually beautiful (Dartzeel) and the other looks like a "cheap toy". There is much audio gear, however good it sounds, that I could never own unless I figured out a way to hide it from sight. If I really don't like the visuals I just eliminate it from contention -- there are lots of good choices out there

 

[marty]

i love this thread. Germinal, I'm a scientist and was thrilled to see that you actually tried to do the most unbiased listening experiment you could envision. Why not simply accept the sonic results and smile on the savings you just realized as a consequence? Listening is always the final arbiter, not cost or cosmetics (although I love the Mac look- always have). I wouldn't be shocked if many people chose bargain-priced over uber priced-gear in a blinded test.

As Mike wisely said, there is a difference between A/B testing and long term listening so your opinion may change over time, but hey, why not take the win for now and see how it plays out over time?