Dedicated Manufacturer Sub-Forums Sponsored by Manufacturers

[PeterA]

It seems like forum is becoming a food court. WBF members are the hungry shoppers with money in their pockets. The manufacturers have discovered WBF as the place to sell their gear because this is where the buyers with the money are. The owner of the mall just decided to charge rent.

This practice started quite a while ago when manufacturers and dealers joined the discussions on various threads to enhance brand awareness and to solicit customers. There were certain products that some members did not feel they could not discuss openly and criticize because the designers and the dealers were involved in the discussions. It was awkward. I received nasty private messages from a manufacturer when I dared to criticize something on a thread. This practice has now just been formalized because WBF has figured out a way to monetize it.

I am just surprised that Ron‘s announcement was not made sooner. Personally, I find the whole thing quite interesting because I think it is a unique approach. It will be interesting to see how this practice develops and what happens to the quality of the discussions. If the hobbyists who provide the interesting content leave, the forums will be filled by owners groups and advertising for the industry. What was once a very vibrant place for hobbyists to discuss what they are doing will morph into a kind of digital magazine with a very large comment section moderated by the publisher.

 

[PeterA]

If that was the case, all the deleted posts would have been transferred to a dedicated thread outside of the manufacturer’s sub-forum, but they were not, which proves that Ron and Steve have chosen to shield the advertisers and regulate the forum beyond the TOS.

What they will soon find out is that the forum’s only real assets are it’s members. It is the members and their contributions that attracts others to join & visit the site, and it is this traffic that is the interest and brings the manufacturers, dealers and their advertising dollars: but conversely when key members and their contributions leave and go elsewhere…..it ALL dries up. As they say, don’t bite the hand that feeds you! This should be obvious and a great opportunity for others.

Spot on.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

Has someone apologized to Bill? He walked right into a Bear trap.

Yes; I left two telephone messages for Bill, and we have been in email correspondence. I have implored Bill to reconsider and to return. We have offered to establish for Bill a dedicated sub-forum to highlight his amazing speaker projects and his incredible woodworking skills.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks to each of the members on this thread who participated in this discussion and contributed their thoughts and advice. We are grateful for the enthusiasm members have to insure that WBF remains a community we all enjoy!

The administrative team has considered everyone’s comments, and here is our resolution for current and future Manufacturers Promoted User Groups:

WBF has created a new category of sub-forums called Manufacturers Promoted User Groups. Going forward each Manufacturer Promoted User Group will be located in this newly-formed category.

WBF is not responsible for moderation in a Manufacturer Promoted User Group. Moderators in a Manufacturer Promoted User Group will be selected by the manufacturer, and each Manufacturer Promoted User Group will have complete control of all moderation in its respective sub-forum.

 

[Salectric]

Where will these “Manufacturer Promoted User Groups” be located? And will posts in these groups be included in the Latest Activity list?

 

[Steve Williams]

What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

The High End Audio and Video Forum on the planet! Hi-End Audio for Audiophiles, Reviews, Member Systems, Reel to Reel, Turntables, Analogue, DACs, Computer Audio.

whatsbestforum.com

all posts will still show in latest activity and new posts. Nothing we can do about this. When I look at new posts and latest activity I ignore all but those I’m interested in. We also have an “ ignore” button which is easy to use

 

[Steve Williams]

I didn't even know there were "dedicated manufacturer sub-forums." Now that I do know, I suggest they be segregated from other forum posts rather than mixed in with all the others. In particular they should not appear in the "Latest Activity" list or, at a minimum, if they are included there should be some sort of identification to inform non-believers to steer clear.

done

What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

The High End Audio and Video Forum on the planet! Hi-End Audio for Audiophiles, Reviews, Member Systems, Reel to Reel, Turntables, Analogue, DACs, Computer Audio.

whatsbestforum.com

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

The High End Audio and Video Forum on the planet! Hi-End Audio for Audiophiles, Reviews, Member Systems, Reel to Reel, Turntables, Analogue, DACs, Computer Audio.

whatsbestforum.com

all posts will still show in latest activity and new posts. Nothing we can do about this. When I look at new posts and latest activity I ignore all but those I’m interested in. We also have an “ ignore” button which is easy to use

Very unfortunate. Different rules and lack of equality with posters on these forums. Controlled narratives. And navigating on the new post and latest activity feeds there is an expectation of fairness that will inevitably cause issues.

And these advertisers will get the identity of the forum without being held accountable in the same way as other members.

We move on.

I guess we have to see it in action and how plain the disclosures are.

 

[ddk]

done

What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet!

The High End Audio and Video Forum on the planet! Hi-End Audio for Audiophiles, Reviews, Member Systems, Reel to Reel, Turntables, Analogue, DACs, Computer Audio.

whatsbestforum.com

This is a great solution Steve, I really like this new category of sub forums for the industry where the owner can moderate content. If this pans out in a few years there would be a very valuable archive of brand related information for people who need it. No one's getting younger and this information might never be available if not kept somewhere. Last thing anyone wants is to sort out through unrelated posts in this type of thread, great that they can purge useless ones.

I hope you continue to keep the group updates in both Latest activity and New Posts. They are WBF members also many here are interested in such forums, who doesn't want doesn't have to read anything!

david

 

[tima]

We also have an “ ignore” button which is easy to use

Can you make it possible to ignore a forum?

 

[Steve Williams]

Can you make it possible to ignore a forum?

No

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, a member of the forum nominated by the manufacturer will have effective ability to censor a manufacturer thread, get posts deleted, take sides, obviously with the manufacturer in mind, or even formally directed by the manufacturer to do so in individual instances. The WBF board of moderators will have no say.
And this is considered a good idea by those who've proposed it?

 

[PeterA]

So, a member of the forum nominated by the manufacturer will have effective ability to censor a manufacturer thread, get posts deleted, take sides, obviously with the manufacturer in mind, or even formally directed by the manufacturer to do so in individual instances. The WBF board of moderators will have no say.
And this is considered a good idea by those who've proposed it?

Marc, I think of it as two separate forums on one site/platform. Members can simply choose what to read. It will be interesting to see how it develops.

 

[ddk]

So, a member of the forum nominated by the manufacturer will have effective ability to censor a manufacturer thread, get posts deleted, take sides, obviously with the manufacturer in mind, or even formally directed by the manufacturer to do so in individual instances. The WBF board of moderators will have no say.
And this is considered a good idea by those who've proposed it?

I think it's an interesting concept we should give it time and see how it progresses. It's a forum with a narrow focus and no one is forced to participate if they don't want to. The other side of the coin is how much participation does the forum owner want, they have to behave accordingly. We recently lost Vladimir Lamm maybe if there was such a sub forum 10 years ago there would be a nice archive of his exchanges with people and his knowledge and wisdom would enrich others. There's also all the service and technical related topics that people could access. Give it time!

david

 

[Steve Williams]

So, a member of the forum nominated by the manufacturer will have effective ability to censor a manufacturer thread, get posts deleted, take sides, obviously with the manufacturer in mind, or even formally directed by the manufacturer to do so in individual instances. The WBF board of moderators will have no say.
And this is considered a good idea by those who've proposed it?

You’ve got it wrong. The moderators are members of their usergroup and no one from WBF as you suggest. This is a forum for members of a product and to share thoughts and ideas with like members. I guess it’s their play pen and we have discovered that self moderation in these sorts of subforums is very normal. Do you have a problem with them discussing their systems amongst themselves or do you feel it’s ok for members not part of the group to interject negative comments. All I have been reading there are posts from a multitude of happy campers who love their systems.

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's not a case of people posting negatively per se, human communication is both positive and negative. If Zu was on a Sub Forum, and someone interjected to pass less than stellar comments (as I've noticed from time to time on WBF), would it really be right for the mod of the Zu forum to censor it? As a fan, I actually wouldn't support that.

 

[Steve Williams]

It's not a case of people posting negatively per se, human communication is both positive and negative. If Zu was on a Sub Forum, and someone interjected to pass less than stellar comments (as I've noticed from time to time on WBF), would it really be right for the mod of the Zu forum to censor it? As a fan, I actually wouldn't support that.

But that’s not the case so stop creating suppositions when they don’t exist

 

[tima]

I'm inclined to see what happens going forward, as David suggests.

It does formalize two different classes of forums with different sets of rules and 'moderation'. That is new for WBF and we're not used to it. It's announcement coincided with a sponsored manufacturer user regulated forum (SMURF) administrative member interacting in a questionable way with a well respected forum member, causing him to quit WBF. So it did not start well.

But ... assuming we know which of the forums are smurf forums and which posts come out of them, then each of us should be able to act as we deem appropriate. In theory, as long as we know what is what, we should be free to interact or respond, avoid or ignore such posts or forums as we see fit. You can always leave your negative Zu comments outside of a protected forum.

What will be interesting is if a smurf manufacturer says something like: "we will only answer questions or respond to inquiries about our products if they are submitted within our special manufacturer forum." Or other such requirements. It will be interesting to see if WBF will sell password protected or even user invisible forums.

When I was a product manager for large IT projects/products (75k+ customers) I was also responsible for customer satisfaction. I wanted to hear directly from customers if they had an issue, a complaint or suggestion -- that information was gold to me. It will be interesting to see how manufacturers respond to customers in public.

Lot's of ways this could go. Give it some time and we will see.

 

[Salectric]

I have no problem with any manufacturer setting up its own forum and having customers as well as interested members of the public posting comments and questions, and of course the manufacturer would be free to delete negative posts or do whatever it wants. However, for this to occur under the umbrella of a supposedly open forum like WBF is an entirely different matter.

I understand the need or desire to generate revenue to support a website, but the manufacturer sub-forums at WBF are a real slippery slope.

The easy answer is to separate the manufacturer sub-forums so they are not part of the overall forum. In particular posts on a manufacturer sub-forum should not appear on the Latest Activity list. Just speaking for myself, if there’s no way for me to avoid reading the first line or two of a new post by Mr. Weiss, then I will stop looking at the Latest Activity which essentially means I stop looking at WBF. Not the end of the world, but I suspect there are others who will also vote with their feet by no longer visiting WBF.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But that’s not the case so stop creating suppositions when they don’t exist

It was a genuine enquiry based on a scenario that I thought might happen. Everything is suppositions when an idea is put fwds to be discussed, but hasn't happened yet.
Good luck with your new idea Steve, I hope it suits enough members to be worthwhile. It'll obviously be great for manufacturers.