Denali vs PS Powerplants

barbz127

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Hi all

I've been moving my power cables over to shunyata as I like what they bring to the table both from a physical quality and sonically.

Im looking to add a new power conditioner/filter to the system to upgrade the venom au-8 that's currently in place and I'm torn on whether to go back to a ps audio power plant or to upgrade in the shunyata range to a Denali.

Has anyone had the chance to compare side by side either of the ps audio power plants to the Denali/everest and can help me make this decision?

Thankyou
 

Alrainbow

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I cant commnet on a direct compare an everest but have older models of the same kind
There are pros and cons to each
Everest is passive so it does it only removes and leaves the signwave in tack .
A regen creates a new complete
Signwave .
Both have there own effects in many ways
I think everest is better to use on amps but niether will solve dc offset or signwave distortion.
Larger amps are effected by this much more due to the size of core and widnings used .
 
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DetroitVinylRob

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I can! Had a PS Audio Premier powerplant for years and swore by it. Then as Shunyata introduced their latest NR Venom and Delta line technology I started replacing power supply cables and a CD player cable with these and was astounded by the gains in quieting (noise floor) we were experiencing (you may never know it is there until it is removed). Then we tried a Denali V2, first on the front end a head of the source components, and WoW! The sole soundstage opened up and became more a more relaxed delivery. But then I tried the unit on my field-coil power supplies and OTL power amps… and, oh my! even a more dramatic improvement yet. So now I have moved to two Denali V2’s because front end and power amps (right next to loudspeakers) are some twenty-five feet apart, so the need for two.

Power regeneration at best may be excellent for electric motors (turntables and CD transports) and perhaps power supplies, supplying mains at spec. But this experience is making me question mains delivery and what aspects of it matter most, and Caelin Gabriel’s DTCD ideas. They appear to prove out. There is a dynamic improvement in my room that is astonishing (especially at the power amp end of my kit) and illogical. Illogical in the sense that I would think any additional componentry between the mains and our audio gear, even passively, would not improve the dynamics, but very likely inhibit it. But hey, I may have some experience with audio gear but I am a self-professed neophyte to understanding electronic theory. It also appears that collectively this has again reduced the noise floor and brought out additional micro dynamics and micro detail, a sense of the space (room) where the recording was captured, even more dramatically.

Your mileage may vary.
 
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PYP

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Haven't tried power regenerators, but have tried isolation transformers, choke-based systems, filter-based systems, balanced power. Unlike these (in my system at any rate) the Denali v2 makes a very significant improvement to timbre and tone. And it does that without favoring any frequency (sounds natural) and without adversely affecting timing (quite the contrary).

My setup is simple, so everything is powered by one Denali. My assumption is that the Component-to-Component Isolation, which I believe is unique to Shunyata (or uniquely implemented), makes this power distributor more effective that other approaches.
 

Neilbo75

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Haven't tried power regenerators, but have tried isolation transformers, choke-based systems, filter-based systems, balanced power. Unlike these (in my system at any rate) the Denali v2 makes a very significant improvement to timbre and tone. And it does that without favoring any frequency (sounds natural) and without adversely affecting timing (quite the contrary).

My setup is simple, so everything is powered by one Denali. My assumption is that the Component-to-Component Isolation, which I believe is unique to Shunyata (or uniquely implemented), makes this power distributor more effective that other approaches.
Testimonials such as this from serious forum members are starting to instruct this newbie.

However, the Denali and similar products still seem to ignorant me to be overpriced shunts into ferrite sand. Yet ferrite may be what the doctor ordered. It does suppress noise well, such as a $5 clamp on a power cable.

The new Shunyata grounding system may (or may not -- the thread is complicated) take it to the next level, reducing chassis noise of various components.

The art of noise is just as important as the art of music. Yin and Yang.

Keep up the good work probing and sharing.

Neil
 
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Zeotrope

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I have a PS Audio P20, which I replaced with dual Denali V2. The Denali is superior. The problem with the PS Audio regenerators is that they add noise when they regenerate. What PS Audio does not tell you is that there is no way to create a perfect noise-free AC signal. The quality of the incoming power is still going to affect the outgoing AC quality. The other problem is that the act of generating the new signal is not perfect. So unless your incoming power is very bad (either in voltage or in noise), you’ll get better sound with a Shunyata Denali or Everest.
The P20 output is also affected by fluctuations in the incoming AC. So on summer days when you and your neighbors are running their AC units, the output will be noisier than on days when this is not occurring — it really doesn’t fully isolate you from the incoming mains. You see that the incoming THD and voltage are worse, and you see the output is a bit worse too. Unfortunately, a bit worse is audible on very revealing systems.

Variations in the AC sine wave don’t matter as much with components that have good quality power supplies. The fluctuations are all converted to flat direct current anyway. So if you have good quality incoming AC and/or good quality components with robust power supplies, performance will definitely favor the Shunyata products.

And then the Altaira Hubs for grounding are a game changer and take things to another level, so that’s another reason to go with Shunyata.

The P20 can be more cost affective though, especially for the # of outlets it provides. So in terms of $/outlet, it‘s better value than an Everest or Denali.
 
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Ron Resnick

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I have a PS Audio P20, which I replaced with dual Denali V2. The Denali is superior. The problem with the PS Audio regenerators is that they add noise when they regenerate. . . . The other problem is that the act of generating the new signal is not perfect. So unless your incoming power is very bad (either in voltage or in noise), you’ll get better sound with a Shunyata Denali or Everest.
The P20 output is also affected by fluctuations in the incoming AC. So on summer days when you and your neighbors are running their AC units, the output will be noisier than on days when this is not occurring — it really doesn’t fully isolate you from the incoming mains. . . .

Are you stating that the PS Audio is inferior technically, based on these problems, or do you mean inferior sonically, to the Denali?
 
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Zeotrope

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Are you stating that the PS Audio is inferior technically, based on these problems, or do you mean inferior sonically, to the Denali?
Neither. PS Audio’s method of solving the problem (regeneration) has certain advantages (if incoming power is worse than approx +/- 3V and >4% THD) and it costs less ($10,000 for 16 outlets or $625/outlet). The Everest works out to $1250/outlet, or twice the cost. The Denali 6000/V2 (which I own) is $1000/outlet.

If you don’t have incoming AC that is worse than the above, and don‘t mind the additional cost (or don’t need more than 8 outlets), the Everest will outperform the P20.
The incoming power specs came from my own experience (my power does not exceed those thresholds). Also keep in mind that the P20’s performance degrades further if you ask it to do too much, or if it has to add voltage.

I think the PS Audio Regenerators are great, for the price, and if incoming power is poor.
 

Ron Resnick

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Thank you.

Technical specifications and electrical issues aside, how do each of these products affect the sound of your stereo?
 

Zeotrope

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Both the P20 and Denali reduced background noise, and improved video image sharpness and contrast primarily. (I tried to build a system that can playback both 2 channel music and multi-channel movie playback equally well).

P20: With my very sensitive speakers, sitting 10‘ away, I could hear additional background noise at times, corresponding to variations in incoming AC power, or from the P20 unit itself adding noise. That’s now gone with the Denali. PS Audio makes it seem like the regenerators have no drawbacks. That’s not the case. The output is still a reflection of what is input. That’s also why the power cord used makes a big difference!
Denali: Moving from the P20 to the Denali, I noted the following:
- realism of tone has improved
- localization of instruments improved
- noise floor seems lower
 

Ron Resnick

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Both the P20 and Denali reduced background noise, and improved video image sharpness and contrast primarily. (I tried to build a system that can playback both 2 channel music and multi-channel movie playback equally well).

P20: With my very sensitive speakers, sitting 10‘ away, I could hear additional background noise at times, corresponding to variations in incoming AC power, or from the P20 unit itself adding noise. That’s now gone with the Denali. PS Audio makes it seem like the regenerators have no drawbacks. That’s not the case. The output is still a reflection of what is input. That’s also why the power cord used makes a big difference!
Denali: Moving from the P20 to the Denali, I noted the following:
- realism of tone has improved
- localization of instruments improved
- noise floor seems lower

Thank you very much for this detailed reply!
 

Zeotrope

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Thank you very much for this detailed reply!
My pleasure and anytime, Ron! Let me know if I can add more detail.

I’m currently still in shock by how much of a difference grounding can make (with the Shunyata Altaira system), especially to the DC power supply for my field coil drivers. Driver magnets Are actually in the signal path, if you think about it; but I always assumed they were not.
 
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Alrainbow

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This topic is very complex and no one fix is perfect
Having used all each have their place but a Denali is passive where a ps audio has big advantages in fixing more. I’ll get bashed but I have an electrical engineers degree it’s not simple over all. To be honest grounding needs to be correct first then filters get applied
I Dont sell anything but Rex does let him weigh in as he has done audio installs many times more then I have
 

Zeotrope

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This topic is very complex and no one fix is perfect
Having used all each have their place but a Denali is passive where a ps audio has big advantages in fixing more. I’ll get bashed but I have an electrical engineers degree it’s not simple over all. To be honest grounding needs to be correct first then filters get applied
I Dont sell anything but Rex does let him weigh in as he has done audio installs many times more then I have
I am an engineer as well and don’t sell anything and have no affiliations with any brands. I have purchased all components as a private consumer with no special discounts.
I call it like it is (in my system). The Denali 6000/V2 is superior to the P20, and I’m sure the Everest is even better.
But, again, if you have really bad incoming power and appreciate the lower cost per outlet, then the P20 is ideal.

One of the questions to answer is why is regeneration necessary? Sure, it inherently makes sense; but is it really necessary? The AC sine wave is flattened anyway, since components use DC (with very few exceptions). If your component has a well designed power supply, it will filter noise and provide a buffer against voltage fluctuations anyway. So is the objective really to recreate the AC signal, and then throw it away?!

Shunyata also filters inter-component noise, something I forgot to mention above. I definitely heard noise from one component pass through my system with the P20.
 

Kingrex

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I have been exposed to a variery of these products. The best audio systems and almost every recording studio, film studio in the world that rely on clean power with an extremely low sonic signature use a wall mount Torus isolation transformer. Controlled Power transformers are also widely used. Once you add in the remote disconnects and overload protection required by all electrical codes worldwide, Torus is less expensive and overall a better option than Controlled Power. All code required primary and secondary protection is built into Torus units. Its a drop in connection.

An isolation transformer has limitless power delivery. They power everything from delicate signal equipment to the largest amps and subs. They are available up to 100 amps in Torus and 150 amps via Controlled Power.

Torus does not create "audiophile" sound. Its clean and dynamic. It brings a calm to the room without grabbing attention. They have excellent filtration properties as well as integrated surge supression. They can be ordered with voltage regulation so your equipment only sees 120 volts during sags to 90 volts or surges to 130 volts.

I prefer a wall mount over a rack mount because a toroid coil can hum at some homes at certain times of the day. I have never had a hum issue with say a 2000 Volt Amp on the rack that will serve a Gryphon integrated, digital server, DAC and vinyl. You can put a 4500 volt amp on a rack but you may want a rack with only an exposed back to block noise and vent heat. 4500 volt amps will run the Gryphon system as well as subs. Stepping into a 6kVA to 10kVA and I want it on the wall outside the room. But come on. I'm gonna bring 4 to 8 dedicated branch circuits from a unit that large to your rack. It will easily power Boulder to Gryphon monoblocks and their subwoofers.

Any isolation transformer should be within 40 feet of any branch duplex outlet. You don't want noise creeping back in.

If you want a direct ract mounted.comparison to a PS Audio or Shunyata, look at the 2000 VA rack mount Torus RM that retails for $3,999. If you want voltage regulation, look at aTorus AVR for $7,499. Very competative pricing to any other rack solution.
 

Kingrex

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You can also look at solutions such as a Sol Ark hybrid inverter with as many Iron Mountan Lithium batteries as you need for hours upon hours of off grid listening. I specify these type systems when your considering a full solar system on the home. You need an inverter, so why not get the best with a rated less than 3%THD. That is a very clean quiet power supply. And they put out 15,000 watts of power for up to 20 seconds. Thats insane power. Isolating the audio and stabilizing the power is a wall mount Torus 240 volt in- 120 volt out isolation transformer.

Each battery you drop on the wall is equivalent to a Stromtank 5000. They cost about $5000 each instead of $50,000.

Contrary to what people think, a battery system integrated to solar with an isolation wall mount transformer can exceed ppwer quality that comes from the utility.

Properly applies, the batteries can be used to load shed peak power pricing. Your car can be tethered to the system also for additional load sheding and charging at low $$$ hours.

A battery system will never really pay for.itself. That is made up hype. But it can be designed in a way to help offset cost. And you can sort of feel good and green about yourself. Sort of.
 
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PYP

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You can also look at solutions such as a Sol Ark hybrid inverter with as many Iron Mountan Lithium batteries as you need for hours upon hours of off grid listening. I specify these type systems when your considering a full solar system on the home. You need an inverter, so why not get the best with a rated less than 3%THD. That is a very clean quiet power supply. And they put out 15,000 watts of power for up to 20 seconds. Thats insane power. Isolating the audio and stabilizing the power is a wall mount Torus 240 volt in- 120 volt out isolation transformer.

Each battery you drop on the wall is equivalent to a Stromtank 5000. They cost about $5000 each instead of $50,000.

Contrary to what people think, a battery system integrated to solar with an isolation wall mount transformer can exceed ppwer quality that comes from the utility.

Properly applies, the batteries can be used to load shed peak power pricing. Your car can be tethered to the system also for additional load sheding and charging at low $$$ hours.

A battery system will never really pay for.itself. That is made up hype. But it can be designed in a way to help offset cost. And you can sort of feel good and green about yourself. Sort of.
As apposed to power regenerators. Do power regenerators draw the same amount of power from the wall when equipment is idle but on as when music is playing? Regardless, seems like a waste of power.

Does the isolation transformer isolate the noise kicked back in from the separate outlets? And are there any amplifiers that don't work well with isolation transformers, or is that just a function of having a properly sized unit?
 

treitz3

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I hate to be "that guy" but IME? This is system dependent.

Tom
 

Kingrex

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As apposed to power regenerators. Do power regenerators draw the same amount of power from the wall when equipment is idle but on as when music is playing? Regardless, seems like a waste of power.
They draw more power durring play. But there are losses at idle. Small. There are probably larger losses from an isolation transformer sitting idle.
Does the isolation transformer isolate the noise kicked back in from the separate outlets? And are there any amplifiers that don't work well with isolation transformers, or is that just a function of having a properly sized unit?
A transformer does not isolate each outlet. And its true, our equipment makes a lot of noise. My experience is the overall benefit of the transformer outweighs the component to component noise polution. I find in my system, my modem router and switch with their independent LPS sound better through the one 4.5 kVA wall mount that serves my whole system than through a separate Triplite or Topaz.

I personally believe a voltage reference to ground between the neutral and ground of all components in tbe audio system of O volts is critical. I believe that is what ground boxes are trying to achieve. If you have 2 isolation transformers, you will derive 2 new neutral both referencing one ground and tbey will never be exactly the same. You will have a ground loop.
 
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Thomas 911

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I am an engineer as well and don’t sell anything and have no affiliations with any brands. I have purchased all components as a private consumer with no special discounts.
I call it like it is (in my system). The Denali 6000/V2 is superior to the P20, and I’m sure the Everest is even better.
But, again, if you have really bad incoming power and appreciate the lower cost per outlet, then the P20 is ideal.

One of the questions to answer is why is regeneration necessary? Sure, it inherently makes sense; but is it really necessary? The AC sine wave is flattened anyway, since components use DC (with very few exceptions). If your component has a well designed power supply, it will filter noise and provide a buffer against voltage fluctuations anyway. So is the objective really to recreate the AC signal, and then throw it away?!

Shunyata also filters inter-component noise, something I forgot to mention above. I definitely heard noise from one component pass through my system with the P20.
i also use the PS 20 in my system , before the PS 10, am very satisfied with it ,
... and can confirm not to hear the smallest noise via senstive MC signal!
, even with high volume setting in stand by,
with former XP 25, a hum in right speaker was once heard, but clearly identified due to lack of shielding, when components stand on each other.

PS 20 did not create any sort of noise , my incoming DHT are reduced by nearly factor 10 to o,16, which is ok so far.

best regards
 

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