Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Rumpole]

Some speakers are more dependant probably becasue they are capable of more. In my experience over a very long time I have found every speaker I have worked with can be improved with better placement and room conditions.

I'm interested in your experience and would like to know how it varies with speaker design. Does precise speaker placement correct for design flaws like poor phase coherence or beamy tweeters in an otherwise excellent speaker? Are speakers with excellent phase coherence and wave guides more forgiving of extremely precise placement? What do you think of YG's claim that their Reference 3 updates make speaker set up easier?

Of course I agree that optimal speaker placement is extremely important. Just trying to reconcile the different views in this thread, where some people find sub-mm adjustments have a huge impact, while others do not.

 

[Elliot G.]

Placing a speaker properly is not some magic trick. It can't fix what speakers don't do or don't do well. It can only help maximize what
the speaker is capable of. Different speakers designs do effect where the speaker will end up. For example I have had many panel speakers and elctrostatics, these set up differently than say what I use now however the principlies are the same the end spot can or will be different.
I want to say this without being arrogant or offensive or any other negative thought . I don't believe that many people truly get it and do not understand what's required or what is even capable of achieving. I have visited and listened at clients, friends, dealers, distibutors, reviewers and manufacturers and to be really honest not many of them produced good sound let alone great sound.
The room and the system need to be optimized to get everything that is possible. This is a time consuming, can be expensive and a lofty goal. I don't believe that most are willing to do this. YOu can achieve good sound in a family room, or a den etc but not IMO great sound. Great sound requires a lot more of everything. Almost everyone has to compromise, I get it but what I don't get is that most don't even try.
There is a lot of word salad out there but too few great sounding systems and rooms that I have seen and heard.
Most of high end audio falls into "i got a great deal catagory" and I set it up myself.
I am sure this is not a popular statement but this is what my experience has showed me.
Sometimes in life we all need to get out of our way and comfort zone and explore are there those who know more than I and take me to a new place. This is ususally not expensive it just requires and open mind.

 

[exupgh12]

All speakers are placement dependant.The laws of physics do not change versus some brand boilerplate. Somes peakers are more dependant probably becasue they are capable of more. In my experience over a very long time I have found every speaker I have worked with can be improved with better placement and room conditions. Every single one. The end game with some is still mediocre but the result of moving them to find the right, or a better spot, is totally universal in result.
The seating position does play a part in speaker set up and the sitting spot is equally important it gettting the best possible result. I agree with Todd about the closer to you get to getting it right the more the little increments make a difference and "sense."
I do find it sad that many just don't get it and therefore will never get all the performance they pay for. There is way to much ego at play in audio and too little expertise.

Elliot,

Technologies like waveguide tweeters and directional effect speakers are designed to control sound dispersion. They offer advantages for easier speaker placement due to their ability to provide more controlled sound directionality and a more consistent sound experience across various listening positions.

Spinorama is a measurement system developed by the Audio Engineering Society (AES), It doesn’t directly predict a loudspeaker’s ease of placement, but it evaluates parameters like directivity and off-axis response that indirectly indicate how a speaker behaves in different positions within a room.

Speakers with controlled directivity, as measured in Spinorama, might be more forgiving in placement and interact more favorably with room acoustics, contributing to easier placement without compromising sound quality.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

Technologies like waveguide tweeters and directional effect speakers are designed to control sound dispersion. They offer advantages for easier speaker placement due to their ability to provide more controlled sound directionality and a more consistent sound experience across various listening positions.

Spinorama is a measurement system developed by the Audio Engineering Society (AES), It doesn’t directly predict a loudspeaker’s ease of placement, but it evaluates parameters like directivity and off-axis response that indirectly indicate how a speaker behaves in different positions within a room.

Speakers with controlled directivity, as measured in Spinorama, might be more forgiving in placement and interact more favorably with room acoustics, contributing to easier placement without compromising sound quality.

what does easier even mean?
I am 100 percent positive that moving speakers changes what the speaker does period. Using tools , perhaps Spinorama, can help or speed up the process perhaps but it will not replace the process.
Formulas and math can help but they don't complete the job.
People have tried to make tools to help people do things without expertise or without help , these are good things but they are not the whole deal.
I read people comapring the math they did as if that was the end all, sorry its not.

 

[Lee]

The small adjustments in speaker placement aren't so much about frequency domain things -- like wavelength. It is much, much more about time and time smearing. Let's look at low frequency content where the wavelengths are huge.

Exactly, hence my Julian Dunn references. And David Wilson's fanatical focus on this element in his time alignment designs.

 

[exupgh12]

what does easier even mean?
I am 100 percent positive that moving speakers changes what the speaker does period. Using tools , perhaps Spinorama, can help or speed up the process perhaps but it will not replace the process.
Formulas and math can help but they don't complete the job.
People have tried to make tools to help people do things without expertise or without help , these are good things but they are not the whole deal.
I read people comapring the math they did as if that was the end all, sorry its not.

Easier, in this context, pertains to minimizing the interaction between speakers and the room environment. For instance, in a narrow room, placing speakers lacking a waveguide near side walls might pose more challenges compared to speakers equipped with waveguides. The incorporation of waveguides can potentially mitigate such challenges by reducing unwanted interactions between the speakers and the room boundaries, thereby improving sound performance in constrained spaces.

 

[sbnx]

I'm interested in your experience and would like to know how it varies with speaker design. Does precise speaker placement correct for design flaws like poor phase coherence or beamy tweeters in an otherwise excellent speaker? Are speakers with excellent phase coherence and wave guides more forgiving of extremely precise placement? What do you think of YG's claim that their Reference 3 updates make speaker set up easier?

Of course I agree that optimal speaker placement is extremely important. Just trying to reconcile the different views in this thread, where some people find sub-mm adjustments have a huge impact, while others do not.

As Elliot pointed out setup will not fix a poor speaker design. But it will still make the most of whatever speaker that is.

Since you mentioned YG and I mentionet it earlier in my rant we can use that as an illustrative speaker. A lot of speakers in the past few years have moved to horn loaded or waveguided tweeters. This can be a very good thing as it will generally lower the crossover point. A few examples of speakers I have worked with recently with a waveguide tweeter: KEF LS50, Zu, Fyne, Rockport, YG carmel2, YG Hailey, Hyperion. In my experience, with a waveguided tweeter the user has basically two options.

First, toe the speaker out until the listener is pretty much outside the tweeter window. The lisetener is very far off axis and the frequency response is dropping dramatically in the treble. In this case the treble the listener experiences is largely coming from what is being sprayed around the room. This is what the reviewer mentioned in the review that the soundstage got huge and images were large (poorly defined). For me personally, this is not the sound we paid $20K for a pair of speakers to obtain. Some may love this but I don't think $20K is needed to obtain it.

The second option is to drastically toe the speaker in to find THE perfect spot. As we start toeing the speaker in it will actually start to sound worse. I think this is why so many give up on toe-in. They just never make to the right spot. We know when we have reached the right spot because the sound becomes so much quieter and clearer. The tweeter noise and the room noise drop dramatically. This is the actual sound that we paid $20K to get.

A couple more thoughts on this. It is no wonder that YG recomments toeing the speakers out. It is much easier to get acceptable sound (Not great sound). And it can be achieved much faster. When the distributor/sales guy/dealer is setting up a pair of speaker in the store or at a show they also typically want a large soundfield that sounds good to a large audience and not great sound for a single seat. So again the toe-out thing works in that scenario. Getting close to the correct toe-in but not nailing it is not forgiving at all. The YG tweeter is very detailed and can easily sound bright and edgy if not perfect.

In the end it is up the the user to decide what kind of sound they want.

 

[Elliot G.]

Easier, in this context, pertains to minimizing the interaction between speakers and the room environment. For instance, in a narrow room, placing speakers lacking a waveguide near side walls might pose more challenges compared to speakers equipped with waveguides. The incorporation of waveguides can potentially mitigate such challenges by reducing unwanted interactions between the speakers and the room boundaries, thereby improving sound performance in constrained spaces.

I get it but this is only a part of set up not the whole magilla nor near the finished product. My speakers use an AMT in a wave guide however that is only part of the speaker and maybe and I do mean maybe this might make things easier, it doesn't truly change the work involved to do the set up correctly. THings that may change in set up are of course room size, width /length/height and with those variables of course the seating position will change. This effects the positioning more than anything else.
IN my room with Divin Marquis my sperakers are toed in a lot, at Capfest a room at least twice my size they were only toed in a little and we sat further away. WHY? because the room is different along with the acoustics of said room.
The work was the same, the results both excellent the positioning different.

 

[Elliot G.]

First, toe the speaker out until the listener is pretty much outside the tweeter window. The lisetener is very far off axis and the frequency response is dropping dramatically in the treble. In this case the treble the listener experiences is largely coming from what is being sprayed around the room. This is what the reviewer mentioned in the review that the soundstage got huge and images were large (poorly defined). For me personally, this is not the sound we paid $20K for a pair of speakers to obtain. Some may love this but I don't think $20K is needed to obtain it.

Todd, I didnt read this BUT this is totally just wrong LOL
I dont want my violins the size of subway cars and female voices to have a toll booth in front of them.
That reviewer should not be reviewing audio, maybe fast food place, since he/she or whatever pronoun is just plain wrong and IMO clueless

 

[sbnx]

Elliot, I agree with you. But perhaps there are some that like that big, diffuse sound. I don't know. Maybe they truly like it as they have experienced both types of sound and this is the one for them. Or maybe they have never experienced a pair of speakers that have truly been dialed in. Again, I don't know but I will give people the freedom to choose what they like.

 

[Elliot G.]

One last CRaZy ststement from me
Properly set up systems sound more alike than they do different!
Hmm why is that?
Its because they are really close to the sound of the music

Todd , I agree people can choose to do whatever they want. Ketchup on Filet Mignon, Grated cheese on seafood pasta, Chill their red wine its all good if they want it like that.
Me I like mine to sound like music, music that I go and went to hear. A viloin isnt 12 feet accross. Ricky Lee doesnt sound like she is front of the Holland tunnel. I feel if you get the little things correct the rest takes care of it self. Sure lots of recordings do all kinds of fun stuff but that is not predictable a solo instrument is.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, I agree with you. But perhaps there are some that like that big, diffuse sound. I don't know. Maybe they truly like it as they have experienced both types of sound and this is the one for them. Or maybe they have never experienced a pair of speakers that have truly been dialed in. Again, I don't know but I will give people the freedom to choose what they like.

Perhaps you are correct but then they need to go listen to some live unamplifed music. Folk, jazz, chamber, classical and sit in front of it and close their eyes and learn what it is supposed to sound like.
Its a skill, it can be learned, We use our senses and can improve the information understanding we get from them. THis is the same thing but it requires hearing plus paying attention and the lowering of our ego's and preconceived positions.
I get in my room all the time "i had no idea speakers can sound like that"

 

[Chop]

All speakers are placement dependant.The laws of physics do not change versus some brand boilerplate. Somes peakers are more dependant probably becasue they are capable of more. In my experience over a very long time I have found every speaker I have worked with can be improved with better placement and room conditions. Every single one. The end game with some is still mediocre but the result of moving them to find the right, or a better spot, is totally universal in result.
The seating position does play a part in speaker set up and the sitting spot is equally important it gettting the best possible result. I agree with Todd about the closer to you get to getting it right the more the little increments make a difference and "sense."
I do find it sad that many just don't get it and therefore will never get all the performance they pay for. There is way to much ego at play in audio and too little expertise.

What Elliot said. Every last word.

 

[Another Johnson]

The small adjustments in speaker placement aren't so much about frequency domain things -- like wavelength. It is much, much more about time and time smearing. Let's look at low frequency content where the wavelengths are huge.

Let's assume the speaker has M8X1.25 thread on the spikes. That means one full revolution of the spike yields a 1.25mm height change. Making a quarter turn to all four spikes and raising the speaker by 0.31mm (0.012 inch) is very clearly audible in bass articulation. It is not the frequency response we are necessarily fixing. It is the massive amount of decay and overlap we are fixing.

If the launching point for a wave is changed by 30%, as is the case for small dimensional changes at high frequencies, it will affect overall smearing in the direct field.

If a quarter turn of the spikes gives rise to significant changes in the perception of the bass, it is because the boundary layer at the woofer/floor interface has a very steep transition.

And if all these tiny tiny micro adjustments really do make a difference (I’m not saying they don’t), then the tiny differences in the shape our ears must impact this perfect state too. So the perfect set up dialed in to a third of a millimeter, is only perfect for those of like ear shape who also have the same hearing profile in both time and frequency domains.

Personally, this quest looks like an OCD “fool’s errand.” Perhaps it is extremely gratifying to find the perfect match between seat and speakers for your ear shape and hearing profile. In my case, my listening chair moves around by +/- an inch in all directions as a routine consequence of plunking yourself down in it. Maybe we need to spike our seats as well as our speakers.

I visited an audiophile who had a $35k system (in 1984 dollars). It was state of the art. His listening chair was a fully adjustable dental/barber chair bolted to the floor. He wasn’t taking any chances. He could always dial himself in to perfect bliss for every one of the 20 tracks he repetitively listened to.

 

[Ron Resnick]

And if all these tiny tiny micro adjustments really do make a difference (I’m not saying they don’t)

In my case, my listening chair moves around by +/- an inch in all directions as a routine consequence of plunking yourself down in it.

Maybe we need to spike our seats as well as our speakers.

I am sympathetic to the general thrust of this point.

After solving for distances and adjustments to an extreme level of precision, how precise are we about sitting in the listening chair the exact same way (height, slouch, angle, centering) every time? Does it matter?

If it doesn't matter, then why does the initial extreme level of precision about distances and adjustments matter?

 

[Rumpole]

I am sympathetic to the general thrust of this point.

After solving for distances and adjustments to an extreme level of precision, how precise are we about sitting in the listening chair the exact same way (height, slouch, angle, centering) every time? Does it matter?

If it doesn't matter, then why does the initial extreme level of precision about distances and adjustments matter?

One possibility is that getting the speakers position correct will optimize the interaction of the two speakers over a wide area, so that you get improvements regardless of variations in the listening position. I'm following the thread with interest but also with caution about my own tendency to OCD. I will often lean forward or lean back for certain tracks (which can change the distance to speakers in a range from 7 to 8 feet and change the effective toe-in substantialy), and there are differences in the sound, but I can't say which position is uniformly better, it might depend on differences in the music being played. Maybe I'm not a skilled enough listener to detect effects of sub-mm adjustments of the speakers.

 

[Lee]

If the launching point for a wave is changed by 30%, as is the case for small dimensional changes at high frequencies, it will affect overall smearing in the direct field.

If a quarter turn of the spikes gives rise to significant changes in the perception of the bass, it is because the boundary layer at the woofer/floor interface has a very steep transition.

And if all these tiny tiny micro adjustments really do make a difference (I’m not saying they don’t), then the tiny differences in the shape our ears must impact this perfect state too. So the perfect set up dialed in to a third of a millimeter, is only perfect for those of like ear shape who also have the same hearing profile in both time and frequency domains.

Personally, this quest looks like an OCD “fool’s errand.” Perhaps it is extremely gratifying to find the perfect match between seat and speakers for your ear shape and hearing profile. In my case, my listening chair moves around by +/- an inch in all directions as a routine consequence of plunking yourself down in it. Maybe we need to spike our seats as well as our speakers.

I visited an audiophile who had a $35k system (in 1984 dollars). It was state of the art. His listening chair was a fully adjustable dental/barber chair bolted to the floor. He wasn’t taking any chances. He could always dial himself in to perfect bliss for every one of the 20 tracks he repetitively listened to.

These are some of the reasons I don’t use the beautiful Eames lounger as a listening chair in the main system.

 

[Al M.]

I am sympathetic to the general thrust of this point.

After solving for distances and adjustments to an extreme level of precision, how precise are we about sitting in the listening chair the exact same way (height, slouch, angle, centering) every time? Does it matter?

If it doesn't matter, then why does the initial extreme level of precision about distances and adjustments matter?

One thing is the interaction of the speakers with the room, another the interaction of the listener's ears with the speakers.

Even if the latter changes by moving forward or backward the listening chair, or moving while sitting in it, the interaction of speakers with the room is still fixed by the position they are in.

For example, I can change the speaker position in my room such that the relative amount of low bass vs mid and upper bass is altered, due to changing speaker/room interactions (it's a move of just a few inches or less). Yet that bass ratio is not much changed by me moving my listening chair back and forth over a few inches distance. Other aspects of the presentation do change by doing so.

 

[wil]

I was told by Stirling Trayle that the fine adjustments he makes to speaker positioning is about making the sound gel with the room — and that small differences in seating positions were less consequential.

 

[Tangram]

I was told by Stirling Trayle that the fine adjustments he makes to speaker positioning is about making the sound gel with the room — and that small differences in seating positions were less consequential.

Which is interesting, because I believe Jim Smith advocates finding the right listening spot first.