Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Another Johnson]

I was told by Stirling Trayle that the fine adjustments he makes to speaker positioning is about making the sound gel with the room — and that small differences in seating positions were less consequential.

Room dimensions change by more than these tiny amounts over the course of the seasons in climates outside of the tropics with common building materials and construction techniques.

If, because of the fine tuning, room and speakers gel in July for some specific program, what about next January and a different program?

Set up specialist consultants may give you better results than you are capable of achieving on your own. They may represent money well spent.

But few magicians tell their true secrets. As Sherlock Holmes explained to Watson, once the method is shared, it is dismissed as nothing special by the one who couldn’t devise it himself. The consultant’s perceived value is enhanced by the visible ritual. The consultant’s knowledge is elevated in proportion to the apparent precision of the work.

None of this stuff is a waste of time for the ones who are fascinated by it. Is a séance a waste of time for those seeking to hear beyond the pale? They don’t think so.

So finding the exact perfect location for speakers in a room, to a tolerance of .3 mm, makes … … … for an activity.

 

[bonzo75]

I was told by Stirling Trayle that the fine adjustments he makes to speaker positioning is about making the sound gel with the room — and that small differences in seating positions were less consequential.

i have heard the positive effects of his set up in two systems. A London audiophile’s CH Stenheim ultime 2 is pretty good after Stirling’s set up in a small room

 

[Al M.]

Which is interesting, because I believe Jim Smith advocates finding the right listening spot first.

Right speaker position and right listening spot are not mutually exclusive in prioritization. While I don't think that you have to dial in a seating position within fractions of an inch, i do believe the idea of a general small area within which a listening spot works best is correct. It holds for my room as well.

Once you move your listening seat out of that area, effects on bass, for example, can be large.

 

[wil]

Which is interesting, because I believe Jim Smith advocates finding the right listening spot first.

Yes, they have a different methodology.

 

[wil]

Right speaker position and right listening spot are not mutually exclusive in prioritization. While I don't think that you have to dial in a seating position within fractions of an inch, i do believe the idea of a general small area within which a listening spot works best is correct. It holds for my room as well.

Once you move your listening seat out of that area, effects on bass, for example, can be large.

I have about a 2’ range in seating positions. I’m usually in the mid point, but enjoy the whole range just depending on preference at the time and how I want to experience the recording. It’s similar to picking a different row at a concert. The bass is pretty uniform, but the sound stage varies quite a bit depending on location. My listening chair has wheels!

 

[sbnx]

Roy Gregory just posted a "review" of the work done by Stirling Trayle in an extremely challenging room. It highlights the degree of accuracy needed to get the sound right. I think most would have visted this persons room and told him he neeed to fill it with absorption panels or that he needed DSP. When all that is needed is a very detailed and precise adjustment of the speakers. It is amazing how much of the room can be windowed out.

It is unfortunate that in reading the review we can't hear the before and after but I am very certain that the after is spectacular and beyond belief.

Tempting Fate? - Gy8

The art of extracting real performance in a real world situation…

gy8.eu

 

[sbo6]

Roy Gregory just posted a "review" of the work done by Stirling Trayle in an extremely challenging room. It highlights the degree of accuracy needed to get the sound right. I think most would have visted this persons room and told him he neeed to fill it with absorbtion panels or that he needed DSP. When all that is needed is a very detailed and precise adjustment of the speakers. It is amazing how much of the room can be windowed out.

It is unfortunate that in reading the review we can't hear the before and after but I am very certain that the after is spectacular and beyond belief.

Tempting Fate? - Gy8

The art of extracting real performance in a real world situation…

gy8.eu

I admire anyone who spends the time to dial in their speakers, sweet spot and room acoustics for their optimal listening experience, but I question statements like, "In terms of attitude, both speakers are now raked back (rather than forwards) and sit within 1.2 hundredths of a degree fore and aft, four thousandths of a degree laterally." Sorry, but I would love to see the results of a per - hundredth / thousandth degree A/B test, as I find it inconceivable that adhering to.012 degrees and .004 degrees are humanly audible. The motion of sitting in the sweet spot seat and causing potential (and likely) position movement is likely more than that.

 

[PYP]

I admire anyone who spends the time to dial in their speakers, sweet spot and room acoustics for their optimal listening experience, but I question statements like, "In terms of attitude, both speakers are now raked back (rather than forwards) and sit within 1.2 hundredths of a degree fore and aft, four thousandths of a degree laterally." Sorry, but I would love to see the results of a per - hundredth / thousandth degree A/B test, as I find it inconceivable that adhering to.012 degrees and .004 degrees are humanly audible. The motion of sitting in the sweet spot seat and causing potential (and likely) position movement is likely more than that.

Naive question: Might smaller Stenheim speakers have been easier to set up and achieved a very similar result? Also, why doesn't the dealer of this level of speaker do the setup themselves or provide an allowance (reduction in total price) for the setup?

 

[Al M.]

Naive question: Might smaller Stenheim speakers have been easier to set up and achieved a very similar result? Also, why doesn't the dealer of this level of speaker do the setup themselves or provide an allowance (reduction in total price) for the setup?

Because dealers are usually no real experts on this. They can give you rough guidelines, but that's it. Also, set-up takes time, and there will be hardly a dealer who will go beyond investing two hours of time, which is way too short.

 

[pjwd]

I admire anyone who spends the time to dial in their speakers, sweet spot and room acoustics for their optimal listening experience, but I question statements like, "In terms of attitude, both speakers are now raked back (rather than forwards) and sit within 1.2 hundredths of a degree fore and aft, four thousandths of a degree laterally." Sorry, but I would love to see the results of a per - hundredth / thousandth degree A/B test, as I find it inconceivable that adhering to.012 degrees and .004 degrees are humanly audible. The motion of sitting in the sweet spot seat and causing potential (and likely) position movement is likely more than that.

It's quite a conundrum.. it's something that lots of folks report on and the physics is hard to follow.
I wonder if it's just providing a super accurate direct sound and reverberant field that creates precise stereo image giving more clarity and less masking. All of which sounds like punchier bass sweeter highs etc.
Varied toeing in changes the high fr curve to suit the room liveliness
Any assymetry may adjust for driver/room variance ( L and R rarely match perfectly)
Doing all this by ear is impressive.
Might have to get on the knee pads

 

[XV-1]

Roy Gregory just posted a "review" of the work done by Stirling Trayle in an extremely challenging room. It highlights the degree of accuracy needed to get the sound right. I think most would have visted this persons room and told him he neeed to fill it with absorption panels or that he needed DSP. When all that is needed is a very detailed and precise adjustment of the speakers. It is amazing how much of the room can be windowed out.

It is unfortunate that in reading the review we can't hear the before and after but I am very certain that the after is spectacular and beyond belief.

Tempting Fate? - Gy8

The art of extracting real performance in a real world situation…

gy8.eu

This system is our own @dcc .

He is extremely happy with the results. Pop over to his Litte Barn system thread for more info

 

[MarkusBarkus]

adhering to.012 degrees and .004 degrees are humanly audible

...I enjoyed the piece, but my mind went to the measuring tools: those are very small and precise increments described. But I suppose just matching the measurements side-to-side would be good, no matter the actual value of said measurement.

 

[Elliot G.]

Roy Gregory just posted a "review" of the work done by Stirling Trayle in an extremely challenging room. It highlights the degree of accuracy needed to get the sound right. I think most would have visted this persons room and told him he neeed to fill it with absorption panels or that he needed DSP. When all that is needed is a very detailed and precise adjustment of the speakers. It is amazing how much of the room can be windowed out.

It is unfortunate that in reading the review we can't hear the before and after but I am very certain that the after is spectacular and beyond belief.

Tempting Fate? - Gy8

The art of extracting real performance in a real world situation…

gy8.eu

In some rooms, difficult rooms for sure, the area in which the speakers can be placed to get "good "sound maybe only a few inches.
When we start to set up speakers we are looking for an area . lets call it a box, ususally rectangular in shape that the speaker can be placed in that will allow it to work. At Axpona for example that box was tiny, a very tiny area that we could place the speakers in. If we got outside that area it all fell apart.
This area is your starting area to get the speaker in an area that will allow it work. From there the process of finding the best spot within that area and then the alignment of the speaker commences. So like many things in life you start with the large and work down to the small to get the best result.

 

[Kingrex]

I find it amusing some will talk about the accuracy needed to set speakers for perfect playback, yet dismiss the impact of additional unused speakers in the room.

 

[Elliot G.]

Because dealers are usually no real experts on this. They can give you rough guidelines, but that's it. Also, set-up takes time, and there will be hardly a dealer who will go beyond investing two hours of time, which is way too short.

This is not a surprise and all dealers are not the same. This is the world we live in . IMO the more products a dealer cariies the less likely they are to be an expert on any of them. Its just math. Aren't most clients looking to get the best price rather than the best results? Be honest!
The level of expertise that people have is not the same thing as the their efforts and business skills to run a retail business.
If we want to have a serious dicussion on this topic let's be real and fair.
The store you buy your piano from probably is not the same guy that tunes it. The place you buy your cooking gear is not a teacher of gourmet cooking.
These are different skill sets and IMO the ability to properly position a speaker, or to optimize a turntable etc. are very different than running a store. They are not mutually exclusive but in most cases they probably are.
This is not a critic but let's look at Wilson almost every large install you see or hear about one of the factory staff is there to set the speakers up. This is not an accident its because it takes expertise and experience that most don't have. There is a reason that people like Stirling are booked up months in advance. Its not a controversy its just reality and people don't want to understand that the skills are not universal or gotten by opening a business.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I admire anyone who spends the time to dial in their speakers, sweet spot and room acoustics for their optimal listening experience, but I question statements like, "In terms of attitude, both speakers are now raked back (rather than forwards) and sit within 1.2 hundredths of a degree fore and aft, four thousandths of a degree laterally." Sorry, but I would love to see the results of a per - hundredth / thousandth degree A/B test, as I find it inconceivable that adhering to.012 degrees and .004 degrees are humanly audible. The motion of sitting in the sweet spot seat and causing potential (and likely) position movement is likely more than that.

I tend to share this kind of skepticism. What measurement tools even are this repeatedly accurate?

Honestly, it is a puzzle to me. I am in awe of Todd's set up ability. (And Todd himself claims Stirling is even better.)

Yet I remain skeptical that such tiny degrees of movements can be heard consistently -- or even physically repeated. I don't believe I could hear such minute differences.

Todd says he can hear such minute differences, and I believe him.

 

[Elliot G.]

I tend to share this kind of skepticism. What measurement tools even are this repeatedly accurate?

Honestly, it is a puzzle to me. I am in awe of Todd's set up ability. (And Todd himself claims Stirling is even better.)

Yet I remain skeptical that such tiny degrees of movements can be heard consistently -- or even physically repeated. I don't believe I could hear such minute differences.

Todd says he can hear such minute differences, and I believe him.

Its ok to be a skeptic but if you are then maybe you should invest in hiring Stirling and having the experience yourself. IMO you will find it enlightening and very worthwhile in your room. I'm happy to bet you that the results in your room will surprise you. ( in a good way)

By the way the better the result in set up the more these small changes can be appreciated.
Its funny to me that people go nuts over an ethernet cable or a switch yet don't want to believe that their set up might change the results equally or in fact much more.

 

[Kingsrule]

Who is Todd?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Its funny to me that people go nuts over an ethernet cable or a switch yet don't want to believe that their set up might change the results equally or in fact much more.

+1

Just to be clear, I'm not skeptical at all about the absolutely critical importance of precise and careful set-up. I'm skeptical about the audibility of sub-1mm changes in loudspeaker positioning.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Im a bit skeptical too , but hey its their business so you wanna stand out off course.

The Rockport lyra CH room that Sterling and R gregory set up at Moc 22 was very good .
So he obviously knows what he is doing , and i can imagine he can certainly help people who are less experienced.
To get the most out of a system , set up is everything.
I have done thousands of speaker measurements , and a 20 cm mike change at the listening spot can give a 1 - 2 db difference easily which is audible off course.

How much of a rake angle change is audible is also system dependant .
Some speakers roll off very fast if the measurement angle is adjusted/ changed .
Some stay quit even even at a 10 degree change