Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization
- Thread starter sbnx
- Start date
It only a “relative” comparison and not an apples-to-apples comparison. All variables can never be equal.
Lots of different discussion ideas.
Yes, 0.001 degree is audible. Actually less than 0.001 degree is audible. In my main system I can adjust the thread on the rear spikes of the spacehorns 4 or 5 times before the digital level (NIST Certified) moves from 0.454 to 0.455 and each of those spike turns is audible. The farther up the hill one pushes the performance the smaller and smaller change in position is noticable. However, most systems are in the wrong starting poinnt to hear this level of change. They speakers are so misaligned that 0.001 or 0.01 may not be so obvious. The sound is too far in the weeds. We start out moving the speaker on th order of inches then 1/4 inch then 1/16 inch and quickly it moves to bumps less than a mm. Just like on the spikes. The spike adjsutments start in the 1/4 to 1/2 turn range but quckly get down to barely turning the spikes (0.001 degree type thing.)
I have tried correlating REW measurements with speaker position. There are only broad things that can be said and usually that is only in the beginning of the setup process. If someone is looking for what in the measurement changed when the rake is adjusted 0.001 degrees then I don't think they are going to find it. At least I could not find it. All I can say is the most are greatly underestimating the ability of human hearing to detect very small changes and also to assess bad, good and better. When listening to music we know what instruments are supposted to sound like. We can also tell if they are playing together like professional musicians or if they sound like a hung over college band.
I have setup a range of speakers from pretty budget level to very high level. I have not run into one that I could not get organized sound out of. However, there are noise limitations. If a system is noisy then it limits how fine I can hear. And that limits how precisely I can determine the exact speaker position as it is not clearly defined.
It is unfortunate that most dealers are not so great at setup. As Roy said in the article, paraphrase -- the speakers were more installed than setup. I am amazed that it seems many (most?) dealers aren't even able to get a stable central image for vocals. I routinely find the image pulled to one side or the other. But this is why audio really can't be a luxury industry. Stuff doesn't work out of the box. You simply can't buy a bunch of gear, plug it in, and expect a satisfying musical experience. Someone has to have the skill to make it all work. That could be the owner, the dealer or some hired professional.
I view this as information for those who are trying to understand what is needed to get great sound out of a system. I have no reason to make any of this up. Roy reported on it and has written about his setup detail in many of his articles. One person on this forum that I setup his speakers reported on the process and the results. The person with the Ultime 2's is reporting on the results. Elliot and Steve have expressed that they have seen and heard this. All of this is independent observation. It is up to you what you want to do with the information.
Yes, 0.001 degree is audible. Actually less than 0.001 degree is audible. In my main system I can adjust the thread on the rear spikes of the spacehorns 4 or 5 times before the digital level (NIST Certified) moves from 0.454 to 0.455 and each of those spike turns is audible. The farther up the hill one pushes the performance the smaller and smaller change in position is noticable. However, most systems are in the wrong starting poinnt to hear this level of change. They speakers are so misaligned that 0.001 or 0.01 may not be so obvious. The sound is too far in the weeds. We start out moving the speaker on th order of inches then 1/4 inch then 1/16 inch and quickly it moves to bumps less than a mm. Just like on the spikes. The spike adjsutments start in the 1/4 to 1/2 turn range but quckly get down to barely turning the spikes (0.001 degree type thing.)
I have tried correlating REW measurements with speaker position. There are only broad things that can be said and usually that is only in the beginning of the setup process. If someone is looking for what in the measurement changed when the rake is adjusted 0.001 degrees then I don't think they are going to find it. At least I could not find it. All I can say is the most are greatly underestimating the ability of human hearing to detect very small changes and also to assess bad, good and better. When listening to music we know what instruments are supposted to sound like. We can also tell if they are playing together like professional musicians or if they sound like a hung over college band.
I have setup a range of speakers from pretty budget level to very high level. I have not run into one that I could not get organized sound out of. However, there are noise limitations. If a system is noisy then it limits how fine I can hear. And that limits how precisely I can determine the exact speaker position as it is not clearly defined.
It is unfortunate that most dealers are not so great at setup. As Roy said in the article, paraphrase -- the speakers were more installed than setup. I am amazed that it seems many (most?) dealers aren't even able to get a stable central image for vocals. I routinely find the image pulled to one side or the other. But this is why audio really can't be a luxury industry. Stuff doesn't work out of the box. You simply can't buy a bunch of gear, plug it in, and expect a satisfying musical experience. Someone has to have the skill to make it all work. That could be the owner, the dealer or some hired professional.
I view this as information for those who are trying to understand what is needed to get great sound out of a system. I have no reason to make any of this up. Roy reported on it and has written about his setup detail in many of his articles. One person on this forum that I setup his speakers reported on the process and the results. The person with the Ultime 2's is reporting on the results. Elliot and Steve have expressed that they have seen and heard this. All of this is independent observation. It is up to you what you want to do with the information.
Look Carlos has the best system on WBF ..... next ....
One’s system can improve through the process of comparative analysis.
A really top system only improves with recording Quality.
The rest is all sorted out,( I hope )
I applaud your efforts, however, claims are presumed unfounded until sound evidence is provided, reviewed and agreed by credible sources. And to be frank, we often hear what we want to hear; it is a skill being completely objective, and some might say, inhuman.
Since you are deep in the weeds, why not do an A B A x x test? This would not only confirm (or not) your supposition but may also encourage others to delve deeper into minute speaker and listening placement changes for sonic rewards assuming you're correct.
FWIW, I've taken the Harman Listening test via their Listening SW years back (I recommend it to all, if it's still available) and scored pretty high (again FWIW) and have executed unofficial A B A .. many times, and you'd be surprised with the results.
sbnx .. It is amazing that such small increments lead to these improvements.. do have any speculations on the physics involved
I have seen super symmetrical setups show a lot of minor left and right disparities when using acourate and it seems to improve when this is equalized out .. do you think some of this work solves these issues .. except by ear and very analogue
Phil
While it is true that the motions by the listener in the listening seat are more than small movements of a speaker, one thing that should not be forgotten is speaker/room interaction. This is very sensitive, fixed once the speakers are positioned, and kind of independent of small movements by the listener.
Having said that, this of course does not settle the debate about the magnitude at which speaker movements are audible.
One more word about videos from you and you will not like the outcome. It will be permanent. We know your game and you have been warned multiple times.
If you want comparative analysis? Go listen to said system. This is your last warning.
Tom
My dog was playing with his toy and bumped into a speaker. Its way better sounding now. I charge $1000 to have my dog chase his stuffed squirrel in your living room.
I get the skepticism. I do. The more refined a system is, the basics covered, and the more you dial it in? The more it becomes apparent (the changes).
Think about it like this, if you will...
Your speaker(s) are "x" feet away from the listening position. A very small angle sideways or up will alter the timing over said distance.
It is said timing that changes. That timing is what can make or break a system's palpability or realism in playback.
You don't hear a mirror image of the same drum set a mm apart during live music, nor does the microphone when recording said drum system. When the speakers and listening position are dialed in to the inth degree, there is less time smearing and the end result is a more palpable experience to the end user.
If it were super simple, then we wouldn't have recommendations to pay some cat flight fees and time fees to get it done correctly.
Just ask yourself (or look up) how much a human ear can detect timing changes. Then think about it. I am personally a digit behind Todd but clearly hear the changes. He has a different system, dialed in on a substrate more solid than myself and based upon my experience? I have no reason to doubt what he says. None whatsoever.
This just makes me yearn to get to the level of his performance. I will get there.
In the meantime, there is no reason to bash him for his accomplishments. People have listened to his system. Rave reviews.
At the end of the day, how about people inquire, instead of trying to, "one up" or try to have a consensus that he is making this up. This is a hobby for most of us. Let's lighten up and enjoy the triumphs that some people have achieved, instead of going the same ol, same ol' with the video comparisons and snide commentary.
Perhaps, if we do this, members of this forum will learn instead of argue.
Tom
I know at least 3 little things that will greatly change sound even if the loudspeakers were not moved 1mm.
(1) our bare hand (or human skin) touching loudspeaker cables while the whole system is active (powered on, regardless whether music is playing or not.
talking about a mere touch - not enough force to move the cable even 0.00001% of a mm.
yet there will be sizeable adverse change to soundstage and imaging.
some might say the dielectric material of the cable can store a charge from physical contact with human skin.
(2) physical movement of the loudspeaker cables - due to accidentally moving the cable through unwitting contact from large physical object like a human leg, for example, the said human the leg belong to had been moving physically around the loudspeaker as the human being contemplating shifting loudspeaker positioning and toe-in angle.
due to the movement, certain portion of the loudspeaker cable may suddenly come into stress from being compressed.
the anxiety imposed onto the loudspeaker cable can create changes in sound timbre.
(3) repeating play on the same track (regardless of whether digital or vinyl) very often leads to sound differences even if nothing whatsoever had been done.
for digital it often involve using the remote control to press the same numerical key to play again the same track that was played just a moment ago.
or someone might had placed the player on pause mode, and simply release the player from pause mode and continue play from there.
all digital playback devices retain playback memory and subsequently this issue will affect sound.
the correct way is always to refresh the player and cue up the track to play with the exact same method.
this is the only way to maintain the same sound consistency every time.
for vinyl playback i don't need to spell out why the needle going through the same portion of the groove will yield different sound.
(1) our bare hand (or human skin) touching loudspeaker cables while the whole system is active (powered on, regardless whether music is playing or not.
talking about a mere touch - not enough force to move the cable even 0.00001% of a mm.
yet there will be sizeable adverse change to soundstage and imaging.
some might say the dielectric material of the cable can store a charge from physical contact with human skin.
(2) physical movement of the loudspeaker cables - due to accidentally moving the cable through unwitting contact from large physical object like a human leg, for example, the said human the leg belong to had been moving physically around the loudspeaker as the human being contemplating shifting loudspeaker positioning and toe-in angle.
due to the movement, certain portion of the loudspeaker cable may suddenly come into stress from being compressed.
the anxiety imposed onto the loudspeaker cable can create changes in sound timbre.
(3) repeating play on the same track (regardless of whether digital or vinyl) very often leads to sound differences even if nothing whatsoever had been done.
for digital it often involve using the remote control to press the same numerical key to play again the same track that was played just a moment ago.
or someone might had placed the player on pause mode, and simply release the player from pause mode and continue play from there.
all digital playback devices retain playback memory and subsequently this issue will affect sound.
the correct way is always to refresh the player and cue up the track to play with the exact same method.
this is the only way to maintain the same sound consistency every time.
for vinyl playback i don't need to spell out why the needle going through the same portion of the groove will yield different sound.
Now we're talking anxiety imposed onto a cable...
And a thousandth of a degree that can be heard.
None of this without a shred of proof other than, "I said so."
Noone will even entertain trying to prove they're correct by even attempting A B X. And plenty who agree. Convenient ignorance?
I'm not a diehard science - only guy, but it just might be time for me to head to another group. or at least be a lot more discerning of posts..
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I get you sbo6 .
With audiophiles you can never win .
One claims this , the other that .
Only thing thats absolutely essential is
listen before you buy anything.
A simple thread measurement from the listening position (the tip of the listener's nose) to the center of the loudspeaker and to the outer edges of the loudspeaker is very accurate. This principle has also been used for decades to adjust the track in racing cars (arc minutes and arc seconds) when no complex measuring stations are available. It can also be used for the exact positioning of loudspeakers - clever and not expensive
Makes sense, however, aren't customers listening to a less than ideal setup in the dealer's room(s) if they (dealer) don't know how to optimize a setup? Or do they hire someone else to do that for their rooms? Just curious.
Many years ago, when there were a lot of brick-and-mortar stores, one often listened to poorly setup speakers. In fact, some used speakers that had not been fully broken in. But looking at boutique businesses today, I would expect there is a higher level of expertise and care.
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