Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[mxk116]

How much of a rake angle change is audible is also system dependant .
Some speakers roll off very fast if the measurement angle is adjusted/ changed .
Some stay quit even even at a 10 degree change

Recently I spent timing refining the speaker set up in our room (not a room dedicated to audio or purpose built). The area (~53 m sq) is asymmetrical, with high ceilings, connected with 2 hallways and a staircase to the upper level of our home.

To emphasize your point about rake angle, I was able to hear a change of > 0.2 degree as measured with a digital level. I did not anticipate that I would be able to resolve such a difference but it was reproducible.

 

[mxk116]

Yes. The left speakers moved 12 inch closer to the side wall whereas the adjustments for the right speakers were marginal in terms of placement.

Unless I am being fooled by parallax in the image, the speakers look to more symmetrical to the centerline of the room in the "after" image.

 

[RoyGregory]

Just a couple of points for clarity:

The exact before and after positions are noted in the article linked above - Post 186. The final position is (as also noted in the article) significantly more symmetrical.

This is very much a two-stage process. The tools are used to precisely position and 'zero out' the speakers. Thereafter they are used to track the adjustments that are made by ear. The speaker is adjusted and step by step measurements are taken, in order to record direction of travel and recovery. In other words - the adjustments are audible first and measureable second: the measurements reflect how small a movement/adjustment is audible, not the other way round.

This isn't just about the position of the speakers in the room. It's absolutely about the relationship between the speakers too.

Finally, I'll happily vouch for the fact that the Trio G3 with iTron active drive is about the most critical speaker I've ever set up, especially when it comes to rake/yaw angle (if you've set up a three-spiked speaker with two spikes on one side and one on the other, you'll know EXACTLY what I mean) and the fore and aft adjustment of the tweeter. I clearly recognize the level of precision to which Todd refers.

 

[sbo6]

You seem to be confused. I am not trying to "prove" anything. There are a lot of things in audio that don't make a lot of sense and science would claim are utter nonsense. Yet they are clearly audible. No one that I am aware of has proven why some cables sound different or clearly better than others. Science says LRC is all that matters to a cable and that in the audio band even that is negligable so long as the they fall into a "reasonable" range. What about footers or racks? The levels of vibration we are talking about should have no audible effect. But they do.

What about speakers. Why do you have expensive speakers? The speakers from GR research measure very flat and have great specral decay and off axis resposne with high quality crossover parts. What else is needed?? If we are going to base everything on measurements then we should stop there. Clearly something else is needed. Is it just vanity?

I am simply conveying my observations on how small movements of the speakers matter. This has been demonstrated to others who shake their head in disbelief but the results speak for theirself. As I stated, I have tried correlating this to measurements with very limited success. I believe the measurement system is inadequate and needs work if that is what someone wants to use to dial in a speaker. The main problem I see is that the gated window is open far too long. I am making listening decisions well below 1ms.

As for the comment that "we hear what we want to hear". I disagree with this. If that were the case then every time I moved a speaker I would think it was going to be better and that is not true. There are many cases where I expect to need to move the speaker on a particular direction based on what I am hearing. I go and make that movement and that was not it. I have to put it back and the reassess. There are also many cases where I try some "tweak" and it makes the sound worse. Expectation bias would make me beleive every "tweak" would be better. After all I just spend money on that thing.

I'm not confused in the least, and I'm not the one making claims about thousandths of a degree. I simply stated, why not try an A B test as I and others have done. What is there to lose?

Also, WRT "We hear what we want to hear", I presumed you and others know that it's not absolute. This isn't religion or politics (especially of late). However, it has been well documented that humans are influenced by aesthetics, price, adverts, word of mouth, etc. If you don't think you are, congrats, you're a robot. That's not to say a good set of ears matters not, but it's the combination that needs to be considered, hence the A B test. I'm glad you believe you can hear ultra - minute changes, imagine how many more await in your room worth exploring. I'll be listening to music.

 

[Elliot G.]

I'm not confused in the least, and I'm not the one making claims about thousandths of a degree. I simply stated, why not try an A B test as I and others have done. What is there to lose?

Also, WRT "We hear what we want to hear", I presumed you and others know that it's not absolute. This isn't religion or politics (especially of late). However, it has been well documented that humans are influenced by aesthetics, price, adverts, word of mouth, etc. If you don't think you are, congrats, you're a robot. That's not to say a good set of ears matters not, but it's the combination that needs to be considered, hence the A B test. I'm glad you believe you can hear ultra - minute changes, imagine how many more await in your room worth exploring. I'll be listening to music.

If you are saying that many listen with a closed mind I would totally agree. Many have preconceived ideas and thoughts and are unwilling or unable to get by these biases.
Learning to listen takes time and the ability to be honest with yourself. This is a skill that can be learned if you want to learn it.
It is not however something that one can learn in a NY minute. I liked fooling around with my speakers in my room. I was shown early on a little but it made me curious as to what I could achieve. I also liked going to see live music and tried and failed all the time tying to make myu system sound more like what I heard at a concert. Over time however if one sticks with this you learn what things happen when you do a certain task or a change.
I agree we are all influenced to a some degree by color, size, price etc . This is very obvious when we do HiFi shows. I like to stand outside the room and listen to people exiting especially when they do an audio drive bye. They don't spend 2 minutes in the room but they have decided that it is____!
I also think that these people that do that probably aren't serious about what they are doing or are just window shopping to see whats out there.
Audio in your home REQUIRES a lot of work.It requires a lot of time and effort far beyond the ability to write a check or pull oiut an AMEX card.
It cab be very humbling to find out you screwed up really badly when you bought that last gizmo. BTW we all have done that.
Learning is painful sometimes.
I dont like AB tests per se as that is just he comparison of one thing to another. When you have enough time invested its not hard to know whether you are going in the right direction even if you never reach the end.
My best advice is to start small and don't be afraid to move the speakers. Mark where you started and try and manke notes if need to see what happens when you move them foward for example. Try using something well recorded and musically simple ( few instruments) particularly a upright bass with say drums and a lead instrument. This activiity can be fun and very rewarding however its just not fast to get down the path

 

[Carlos269]

This isn't just about the position of the speakers in the room. It's absolutely about the relationship between the speakers too.

What was the grid size on the floor for evaluating the different speaker positions?

With the grid size and the room dimensions I can calculate the different configurations that needed to be evaluated to find an optimal position between the speakers and the room boundaries, and the speakers’ locations/positions/arrangement relative to themselves.

Assuming that you allow for non-symmetrical arrangements, it would be daunting task to declare any one configuration as the optimal setup.

 

[pjwd]

I don't know the exact physics. Mostly because the way our ear/brain system work is not that well understood. Don't get me wrong, we know some things about how the ear/brain work to interpret sound but on a scale of 1-10 I think a 3 or 4 is optimistic.

What we do know is that the speakers are emitting sound waves in a non-uniform radiation pattern both macro and microscopically. In the macro sense we have the off-axis reponse of the speaker and the fact that sound falls off unevenly to the sides and vertically. We also have that the drivers in a multi-driver speaker overlap in frequency and these drivers are separated by some distance. We also have phase shifts induced by the crossover network. On the micro level we have frequency dependent lobing (interference patterns). We then put this speaker into a room that has refelctions that are frequency dependent and those reflections cause phase shifts compared with the direct sound. The sum of all of this is what we experience here ever we sit.

I think of moving the speaker a very tiny amount as changing the sound pattern in the room. Small changes can have a dramatic effect on the trajectory of waves in the room. Play around using the ray trace program in amroc and you will see what i mean. Put various things in the drawing that would represent small obstacles to the sound. Then place your listening postion. moves the speaker and watch how the rays change.

If you want to play around with this the easiest is speaker height. Very few seem to adjust the height of the speaker but it has a very profound effect on the bass. Get the speaker as level as you can. listen to a bass track. Go over to the speaker and turn all of the spikes 1/2 turn tor raise the speaker. Listen again. Do this 3 or 4 times. Raising the speaker a 2-3mm from the floor effects bass articulation in a pretty dramatic way. You can "micro" tune this to your liking. Raise a little to make the bass leaner. Lower a little to make the bass fuller.

Thanks for the detailed reply
I use amray trace a lot for acoustic design .. crude bur effective. I know enough about acoustics to be dangerous but I still don't get how this superfine adjustment works. All the points you mention can be treated either in speaker design or room acoustics. I don't doubt that you get the results but the adjustment vs the wavelengths involved are mystifying.
I can see how the precise optimization of acoustic symmetry in a non symmetrical space (I am thinking compensatory adjustments) via trial and error adjustments can reap huge rewards but not at low frequency. I can't imagine you would measure a bass improvement. As you suggest it's most likely our perception .. perhaps this is a result of improved clarity of the stereo image but still hard to grasp
I am stumbling around with digital convolution filters at the moment and theoretically this should achieve that same precision .. I certainly will try your approach as well
BTW I am not a fan of spikes for speakers..better than nothing but not nearly as good as the many options out there.. they will definitely clear up bass.. for other mystical reasons
Cheers
Phil

 

[Kingrex]

SBNX,I fat fingered. Its 249 paragraph 4. But your follow up covered a lot.

Elliot, not sure the due respect comment. We are saying the same thing. Learning is generally being taught. Otherwise your mostly floundering around.

I have had people that get speaker setup at my house. I always lesrn something. But I really know nothing. I can hear the bass couple. I can hear beaming and sound stage when towing in and out. I don't understand much beyond that. I did at one time put my speaker on a dense 9 inch tall block to get the mid/tweeter ear level. That was a massive base improvement. I walked away and did not look back on that. Just leave it alone. It does surprise me how leveling the speaker sidways and forward/back improves clarity. Thats just basic Jim stuff.

Hear me out. This will ruffle feathers. I bet a very good way to learn speaker setup is using DSP. If someone were to have a good DSP and they listened to what that did to optimize timing and phase, they could then disconnect it and hear the deficiencies in their setup. If they did this while moving their speakers around, they would start to hear how moving the speaker was correcting the issues the DSP was highlighing. The goal.is to eventually get better sound than the DSP can apply.

 

[Elliot G.]

So let's talk about what I did today in my soundroom. I have finally had the time the last week r so to get my system back up and operating like it did before I had to pack it all , ship it to Axpoona, set it up, tear it down and ship it back. I then had three trips since that including Munich so I havent really had anytime.
So today's portion of the set up was adjusting the speaker tilt or rake angle. I pulled out my trusty floor jack, great tool by the way to adjust whatever you have on the bottom of your speakers, and began.
This is a pain in the ass to get on the floor install the jack raise the speaker enough to turn the footers then lower it, go to the other side and do the same thing to the other speaker, remove the jack and go listen again to the same piece of music...again and again...and again and again...
until you get it "right"
What I can describe is the changing of the speakers realtionship to the air in the room. Esoteric statement LOL well probably it is however that is what actually is happening. The getting the bass "better' or "correct" or "right" is a tedious task however when it is the relationship that the sound exists in the room changes. It just does! There is a sense of acoustic freedom that was not there before. The room truly doesn't seem to play a part at all anymore. Yes my speakers disappeared before I did this but not in the same way. There is a total removal of the feeling of spacial limitations even thought there obviously are. The seperation of sound is clearer the space between the space is totally more evident. Mozart and Debussy talked about the music is in the spaces between the notes and this is kind of the area I am playing in.
These small things in a mature system in a good room can clearly be heard and achieved IF you can do the work or pay someone that can do the work.
If I had to pick an analogy it would be a race car. Getting the absolute out of a race car requires so much work, expertise and money just to get some portion of a second faster around a track , however it is that portion of a second in a race over time that can produce victory. Think of how just a few grains of salt can change the taste of a steak. This is those grains!

 

[Lagonda]

So let's talk about what I did today in my soundroom. I have finally had the time the last week r so to get my system back up and operating like it did before I had to pack it all , ship it to Axpoona, set it up, tear it down and ship it back. I then had three trips since that including Munich so I havent really had anytime.
So today's portion of the set up was adjusting the speaker tilt or rake angle. I pulled out my trusty floor jack, great tool by the way to adjust whatever you have on the bottom of your speakers, and began.
This is a pain in the ass to get on the floor install the jack raise the speaker enough to turn the footers then lower it, go to the other side and do the same thing to the other speaker, remove the jack and go listen again to the same piece of music...again and again...and again and again...
until you get it "right"
What I can describe is the changing of the speakers realtionship to the air in the room. Esoteric statement LOL well probably it is however that is what actually is happening. The getting the bass "better' or "correct" or "right" is a tedious task however when it is the relationship that the sound exists in the room changes. It just does! There is a sense of acoustic freedom that was not there before. The room truly doesn't seem to play a part at all anymore. Yes my speakers disappeared before I did this but not in the same way. There is a total removal of the feeling of spacial limitations even thought there obviously are. The seperation of sound is clearer the space between the space is totally more evident. Mozart and Debussy talked about the music is in the spaces between the notes and this is kind of the area I am playing in.
These small things in a mature system in a good room can clearly be heard and achieved IF you can do the work or pay someone that can do the work.
If I had to pick an analogy it would be a race car. Getting the absolute out of a race car requires so much work, expertise and money just to get some portion of a second faster around a track , however it is that portion of a second in a race over time that can produce victory. Think of how just a few grains of salt can change the taste of a steak. This is those grains!

I would have marked the exact position on the floor, and the thread position on the spikes before removing the speakers for a show. I take careful measurements before even trying to reposition speakers or sub-towers the slightest.

 

[Elliot G.]

I would have marked the exact position on the floor, and the thread position on the spikes before removing the speakers for a show. I take careful measurements before even trying to reposition speakers or sub-towers the slightest.

sounds great but it never works like that Nothing is ever exactly marked.
Everytime I reset the system up it gets better learning is always ongoing and too many are afraid to touch there stuff , I'm not.
I do have an "idea" of the beasic area that they will sit in but all the rest has to be done. There are no short cuts EVER. Blue tape is not exact LOL

 

[Lagonda]

sounds great but it never works like that Nothing is ever exactly marked.
Everytime I reset the system up it gets better learning is always ongoing and too many are afraid to touch there stuff , I'm not.
I do have an "idea" of the beasic area that they will sit in but all the rest has to be done. There are no short cuts EVER. Blue tape is not exact LOL

I can not move my speakers or towers alone, to heavy. A marker circle on the floor around spike cup works for me, i hate fucking up the sound i have already and longer time listening is the best way for me to assess improvement or loss. Quick a/b never works for me.

 

[sbnx]

Agree that tape could get the speaker back in the ballpark there is still going to need to be some work. This is where the digital level also comes in. If readings of rake and azimut are taken as well as height then the speaker can be placed with those settings as well. Then it should be relatively close. It will still take some adjustments to get it back to where it was sonically. However, one might want to take the opportunity to explore if perhaps there is another spot that might work better.

If the speaker is on spikes with spike cups and you have a hard floor you could silicone the spike cups to the floor. Then when the speaker is placed back it will be very precisely placed becasue the spike will go into the divot in the spike cup. Still need ot have height, rake and azimuth readings to get those back.

 

[Kingrex]

So let's talk about what I did today in my soundroom. I have finally had the time the last week r so to get my system back up and operating like it did before I had to pack it all , ship it to Axpoona, set it up, tear it down and ship it back. I then had three trips since that including Munich so I havent really had anytime.
So today's portion of the set up was adjusting the speaker tilt or rake angle. I pulled out my trusty floor jack, great tool by the way to adjust whatever you have on the bottom of your speakers, and began.
This is a pain in the ass to get on the floor install the jack raise the speaker enough to turn the footers then lower it, go to the other side and do the same thing to the other speaker, remove the jack and go listen again to the same piece of music...again and again...and again and again...
until you get it "right"
What I can describe is the changing of the speakers realtionship to the air in the room. Esoteric statement LOL well probably it is however that is what actually is happening. The getting the bass "better' or "correct" or "right" is a tedious task however when it is the relationship that the sound exists in the room changes. It just does! There is a sense of acoustic freedom that was not there before. The room truly doesn't seem to play a part at all anymore. Yes my speakers disappeared before I did this but not in the same way. There is a total removal of the feeling of spacial limitations even thought there obviously are. The seperation of sound is clearer the space between the space is totally more evident. Mozart and Debussy talked about the music is in the spaces between the notes and this is kind of the area I am playing in.
These small things in a mature system in a good room can clearly be heard and achieved IF you can do the work or pay someone that can do the work.
If I had to pick an analogy it would be a race car. Getting the absolute out of a race car requires so much work, expertise and money just to get some portion of a second faster around a track , however it is that portion of a second in a race over time that can produce victory. Think of how just a few grains of salt can change the taste of a steak. This is those grains!

I cringe when I read this type of post that details the precision, experience, time and anxiety needed to set up any speaker. As Elliot alluded to earlier, you can't really learn this on your own. I mean, sure, you can. But your going to flounder, stumbling in the dark before the effort begins to reveal light.

Its disappointing that getting from your stereo what it has to give is something you almost can't do on your own. I bet if Elliot told us every day what hes doing, he will put a week into tweaking before hes pretty satisfied. And I bet he will still feel it needs a smidge this or that. I feel like I hear seasoned audiophile that know what they are doing spend years dialing a system into a room.

I am sort of letting out this groan of what am I to do. I got Jims video. Lost it too. Guess I have to purchase another. Where else can you get more direction on speaker placement and setup for those that are not wealthy. Are there other video guides for purchase?

 

[Elliot G.]

Agree that tape could get the speaker back in the ballpark there is still going to need to be some work. This is where the digital level also comes in. If readings of rake and azimut are taken as well as height then the speaker can be placed with those settings as well. Then it should be relatively close. It will still take some adjustments to get it back to where it was sonically. However, one might want to take the opportunity to explore if perhaps there is another spot that might work better.

If the speaker is on spikes with spike cups and you have a hard floor you could silicone the spike cups to the floor. Then when the speaker is placed back it will be very precisely placed becasue the spike will go into the divot in the spike cup. Still need ot have height, rake and azimuth readings to get those back.

I like set up and I am always challenged to make it better . It is normal for me that when I take it apart I am also inserting something " new " when I am reassembling it. This is of course common to have some change each year when you are in the business. I like the process but have the luxury of taking my time in my room rather than having to do the whole process in a day or a weekend at a clients home. Of course knowing the environment also is very helpful which one doesnt have in a clients home or at an event. I am very familiar with the room /space I have produced and have had 5 plus years in that space. These are all positive and make the process for me more enjoyable and easier.
I am looking for a new location and more space and that will start the whole process from scratch once that actually takes place. Fun? well maybe LOL

 

[Elliot G.]

I cringe when I read this type of post that details the precision, experience, time and anxiety needed to set up any speaker. As Elliot alluded to earlier, you can't really learn this on your own. I mean, sure, you can. But your going to flounder, stumbling in the dark before the effort begins to reveal light.

Im not going to tell someone they can't try or do anything however as Bob Seeger said "searching for mysterieswithout any clues" makes something very hard to accomplish. I was fortunate and the times were very different that many of us were searching at the same time and it was a very collaborative time. We were all discovering things together and the Industry was a lot of fun. The internet and competition has changed everything some for the better but much for the worse.
I've said this many times and it seems that few care. Hearing and listening are very different and it is never more evident than when one reads the reviews of shows. How can something be the best and the worst at the same time?
Like I also said everyone can drive a race car UNTIL they get on the track and then reality sets in, they can't. Audio is all formula one winners

 

[Kingrex]

There is so much to setup. I had a client that made a new room Super bad echo and far to bright. But he never put any room treatments in. Not sure why.
What I am saying is there is not only the speaker placement, but room treatments to consider. A few people have said they can help me with my new room. One person in particular has modeling equipment and looks at bounces in the room and how to deal with them. How do you even know where to start. Do you try and place speakers first. Once you add treatments, placement probably has to change. I don't remember Jims stuff addressing room treatments.

 

[Elliot G.]

There is so much to setup. I had a client that made a new room Super bad echo and far to bright. But he never put any room treatments in. Not sure why.
What I am saying is there is not only the speaker placement, but room treatments to consider. A few people have said they can help me with my new room. One person in particular has modeling equipment and looks at bounces in the room and how to deal with them. How do you even know where to start. Do you try and place speakers first. Once you add treatments, placement probably has to change. I don't remember Jims stuff addressing room treatments.

Most of the acoustic treatment companies ( I use Art Novion) will and can model your room. They will come back with a plan to treat the room( i have had excellent results in the rooms we have used them) They do ask what type of gear you are using and approx placement ( size of speakers , where you would like to place the gear and the speakers , like which side of the room etc. and then give you a plan.
Once you have treated the room the ability to get a world class result is IMO significantly higher, still need to know what to do but the gross errors of the room will not be the issue.

 

[sbnx]

There is so much to setup. I had a client that made a new room Super bad echo and far to bright. But he never put any room treatments in. Not sure why.
What I am saying is there is not only the speaker placement, but room treatments to consider. A few people have said they can help me with my new room. One person in particular has modeling equipment and looks at bounces in the room and how to deal with them. How do you even know where to start. Do you try and place speakers first. Once you add treatments, placement probably has to change. I don't remember Jims stuff addressing room treatments.

If your icon is a picture of your room it looks like you already have some treatments. It is posible to window out a great deal of the room with attention to speaker placement. How much room do you have to position the speakers? Meaure the distance from the farthest back the speakers could be pushed without interference with the gear in some way to the farthest distance you are willing to pull them into the room. Also, How far apart could the speakers be? How much could you move your listening position? These give you some idea of the space you have to play with. The more space the better the likely outcome.

 

[Kingrex]

My new room looks like this.