Digital Audio with Soundstage Depth? Question for Digital Gurus

[Mdp632]

Hello All,

Last evening I spent some time with the PS Audio Directstream DAC running the latest OS (Torreys). I have this DAC on loan from a dealer for about another week or so.

The one thing I noticed when comparing a 24 Bit High Res file compared to my analog of the same album. This isn't to start a what format is better etc. However, I noticed that one of the traits of the analog playback was that the soundstage had more depth to it. For example, on a live recording one could easily more ascertain the location of the performers and where the instruments were coming from in space.

The digital although had greater resolution it lacked that depth to that the stage.

My question is this possible with digital? If so, does it take looking into DACS that are above the PS Audio Directstream DAC in price range to achieve this 3D like soundstage.

Thanks

 

[LL21]

I have 0 analog, so i will go with 2 thoughts:

1. is the mastering different on digital vs analog?

2. in my own system, i notice 3D comes with lower and lower distortion. I find that extremely precise (vs general) placement cues are super-subtle bits of information, and they get 'lost' in the small bits of distortion of the system. As i have focused on isolation, mass damping, emi/rfi shielding around connection points, etc...i find that those super-precise placement cues start to appear.

In fact, having moved house, we literally had to start ALL OVER AGAIN with all of that isolation, emi/rfi stuff, and it has only been in the last 4-6 weeks (after 5 months) that i can once again tell the difference between putting one Entreq Wrapper TIGHTLY around something all the way up to the edge of the cable connection, or slightly loosening the Entreq Wrap around the same connection point.

Back to you question, you might find that with your digital, if you play around with isolation, or emi/rfi you MIGHT find some margin improvements which then lead to those detailed spacial cues coming back into your system.

Just some thoughts, nothing definitive. Good luck.

 

[Speedskater]

What you're missing is the euphonic coloration that the phono system adds.

 

[Mdp632]

What you're missing is the euphonic coloration that the phono system adds.

Oh but, I'm referring to the depth of the soundstage not necessarily the resolution or tone of analog compared to digital. The live of recording of Jazz at the Pawnshop had more depth on the analog. The PS Audio DAC playing back at 24 bit file was much higher resolving than the respective LP.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello All,

Last evening I spent some time with the PS Audio Directstream DAC running the latest OS (Torreys). I have this DAC on loan from a dealer for about another week or so.

The one thing I noticed when comparing a 24 Bit High Res file compared to my analog of the same album. This isn't to start a what format is better etc. However, I noticed that one of the traits of the analog playback was that the soundstage had more depth to it. For example, on a live recording one could easily more ascertain the location of the performers and where the instruments were coming from in space.

The digital although had greater resolution it lacked that depth to that the stage.

My question is this possible with digital? If so, does it take looking into DACS that are above the PS Audio Directstream DAC in price range to achieve this 3D like soundstage.

Thanks

well....er....um......please tell us which recording you used where the digital had more resolution. was this recording digitally sourced or analog sourced?

as far as soundstage depth there are different ways to explain that. one could be the analog output circuit of your phono stage compared to the digital output stage......they can have different characters. I do find that overall sound staging is better with analog/vinyl/tape assuming it's an analog sourced recording. digitizing analog will lose something in the translation......and the phase precision and organic definition of images is a prime thing to be diminished. personally I cannot recall a digital version of an analog recording with even equal resolution.....let alone more. but that could be explained by the choice of analog gear.

as you go up the digital food chain soundstage rendering is one area of improvement. the PS Audio Directstream DAC is a good one, but there are better that do more. the digital designer of that dac (Ted Smith) is a 'local' good friend of mine. he brought over a few versions of his unit to listen in my room over a number of years and it soundstaged pretty good. I've not heard the latest software version though.

 

[Mdp632]

well....er....um......please tell us which recording you used where the digital had more resolution. was this recording digitally sourced or analog sourced?

as far as soundstage depth there are different ways to explain that. one could be the analog output circuit of your phono stage compared to the digital output stage......they can have different characters. I do find that overall sound staging is better with analog/vinyl/tape assuming it's an analog sourced recording. digitizing analog will lose something in the translation......and the phase precision and organic definition of images is a prime thing to be diminished. personally I cannot recall a digital version of an analog recording with even equal resolution.....let alone more. but that could be explained by the choice of analog gear.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. The recoding was "Jazz at the Pawnshop". An analog recording. My analog front rig is a humble VPI scoutmater 2/with Ortofon 2M Black into Pass XP-15 stage.

 

[mullard88]

The EAR Acute CD player is capable of generating a very deep soundstage. It may be worthwhile for you to audition it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. The recoding was "Jazz at the Pawnshop". An analog recording. My analog front rig is a humble VPI scoutmater 2/with Ortofon 2M Black into Pass XP-15 stage.

the 'not really so humble' Scoutmaster/Ortofon/XP-15 is more than competent and hits an excellent price/performance point; it should give you more resolution than the digital.

I have 4 digital versions of JITPS; 2 different redbook CD versions, an SACD and a high rez PCM digital file; I also have a 2xdsd tape rip of JITPS. none of those match the resolution of the 3 different Lp versions or the 15ips 1/4" master dub I have. it's obviously an iconic pure analog recording and does sound amazing in the any of the analog versions. I cannot explain why you hear more resolution in your digital.

 

[microstrip]

well....er....um......please tell us which recording you used where the digital had more resolution. was this recording digitally sourced or analog sourced? (...)

Although single cases are not enough to prove anything, I can refer one case where IMHO and system digital has more resolution - the well known La Folia "Harmonia Mundi" recording.

I have the original LP, the ATR LP, the HM CD and now the SACD. The digital systematically has more detail at similar loudness - the beetle's noise, water flowing noise and bells decays. And the imaging has also more detail in digital - the route of Range Rover in the mountains as it gets away is much more perceptible.

BTW, the only speaker I have owned that shows all the true inner detail and imaging capabilities of La Folia is the Quad ESL 63. Many others have more scale, more bass, more dynamics and more drama, but this point like electrostatic has unique capabilities.

 

[bonzo75]

Hello All,

Last evening I spent some time with the PS Audio Directstream DAC running the latest OS (Torreys). I have this DAC on loan from a dealer for about another week or so.

The one thing I noticed when comparing a 24 Bit High Res file compared to my analog of the same album. This isn't to start a what format is better etc. However, I noticed that one of the traits of the analog playback was that the soundstage had more depth to it. For example, on a live recording one could easily more ascertain the location of the performers and where the instruments were coming from in space.

The digital although had greater resolution it lacked that depth to that the stage.

My question is this possible with digital? If so, does it take looking into DACS that are above the PS Audio Directstream DAC in price range to achieve this 3D like soundstage.

Thanks

Analog soundstage is much more realistic. In absence of analog, try Lampi Big 7/GG

 

[fas42]

A simple answer is that digital playback requires greater care to work correctly than analogue - the decent analogy is TV: analogue transmission can be terrible quality, but one can still see what's going on, hear the dialogue; digital transmission either works correctly, and gives superb quality; or is terribly flawed, subjectively - picture and sound breakup is dreadful, and it's impossible to follow what's going on; it's unwatchable.

Not really a fair analogy, but explains why poor digital audio is so poor - if it is exactly correct, it is brilliant, and beats the pants off everything in sight. In particular, the sound stages can be absolutely enormous ...

How to get that happening? This is usually a system refinement problem - everything, but everything has to be on its best behaviour; a slight weakness, a flaw somewhere will enough to drag the quality down - result: terrible soundstage presentation.

 

[Al M.]

Hello All,

Last evening I spent some time with the PS Audio Directstream DAC running the latest OS (Torreys). I have this DAC on loan from a dealer for about another week or so.

The one thing I noticed when comparing a 24 Bit High Res file compared to my analog of the same album. This isn't to start a what format is better etc. However, I noticed that one of the traits of the analog playback was that the soundstage had more depth to it. For example, on a live recording one could easily more ascertain the location of the performers and where the instruments were coming from in space.

The digital although had greater resolution it lacked that depth to that the stage.

My question is this possible with digital? If so, does it take looking into DACS that are above the PS Audio Directstream DAC in price range to achieve this 3D like soundstage.

Thanks

Yes, it is possible with digital. My soundstage has enormous depth and great spatial layering, but then I also have a room with careful and extensive acoustic treatment and speakers that are 7 feet away from the front wall (for acoustic treatment, see pages 1 and 2 of system thread in my signature). In addition, my amps have a very low noise floor that was made possible by addition of external power supplies which are much better than the amps' own internal ones. This allows for all the low-level spatial information to come through.

My digital playback: Simaudio Moon 260 DT CD transport/MIT proline AES/EBU cable/Berkeley Alpha DAC 2. Redbook 16/44.1, no hi-res (you don't need 24 bit for great soundstage, even though perhaps in direct comparison it might be even better). My DAC is lower priced than yours.

I do not know how vinyl playback in my room/system would compare since I have none.

 

[Folsom]

What you're missing is the euphonic coloration that the phono system adds.

"System"?

You think every part of it adds to it? Do you have a lot of experience with turntables? I'd say the mastering on the albums plays just as big of a factor since there's such a big differentiation between tube based gear or not, for the production side of vinyl. There's too many Telarc albums that sound as or more sterile than many CD'S or such, for me to not strongly consider the origin process.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

Don't waste your time quoting him or answering him Folsom. In any event, by quoting him you reduce or defeat the usefulness of the ignore option that this website has.

 

[Folsom]

Kevin is very smart and at times very helpful. But he likes to play rabblerouser too often, and isn't open to much at all. No one knows what he has for a system or what he's heard... I can see why you'd say what you do, but I won't stop encouraging Kevin to participate like a human instead of a robot; accepting he may not know it all too.

If you ever have a question about house wiring and code, he's an encyclopedia.

 

[Mdp632]

Yes, it is possible with digital. My soundstage has enormous depth and great spatial layering, but then I also have a room with careful and extensive acoustic treatment and speakers that are 7 feet away from the front wall (for acoustic treatment, see pages 1 and 2 of system thread in my signature). In addition, my amps have a very low noise floor that was made possible by addition of external power supplies which are much better than the amps' own internal ones. This allows for all the low-level spatial information to come through.

My digital playback: Simaudio Moon 260 DT CD transport/MIT proline AES/EBU cable/Berkeley Alpha DAC 2. Redbook 16/44.1, no hi-res (you don't need 24 bit for great soundstage, even though perhaps in direct comparison it might be even better). My DAC is lower priced than yours.

I do not know how vinyl playback in my room/system would compare since I have none.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm also going to Demo The Berkeley Alpha DAC 2 in my system after I'm done with the Direcstream.

 

[opus112]

The digital although had greater resolution it lacked that depth to that the stage.

My question is this possible with digital? If so, does it take looking into DACS that are above the PS Audio Directstream DAC in price range to achieve this 3D like soundstage.

Certainly possible with digital but perhaps rarer due to digital kit generating more noise than pure analog. Getting an 'analog' like soundstage might even be possible without changing your DAC - have you tried using isolation transformers between DAC and amp?

 

[Speedskater]

"System"?
You think every part of it adds to it? Do you have a lot of experience with turntables?

I had a Thorens TD-124 and SME-3009 arm when they were the new things.
At the classical music radio stations, we played most of the music on turntables.

I'd say the mastering on the albums plays just as big of a factor since there's such a big differentiation between tube based gear or not, for the production side of vinyl.

Yes there are often mastering differences. Yes some tube gear adds euphonic coloration of it's own. But as for soundstage differences the cutter and phono cartridge are mostly responsible.

There's too many Telarc albums that sound as or more sterile than many CD'S or such, for me to not strongly consider the origin process.

What about the Telarc direct-to-disc album (now that was a lot of work)? What about all the Telarc LP albums that I still have?

 

[Ken Newton]

My experience is that DACs featuring sharp digital reconstruction filtering (meaning; most) typically produce a wide but shallow soundstage. Conversely, so called NOS DACs (meaning; wihout any digital reconstruction filtering) typically produce a deep but relatively narrow soundstage to my ears, among other interesting qualities. If deep a sounstage is a listening priority for you then I suggest you audition an NOS DAC. While NOS does have it's flaws, soundstage depth is usually not among them.

 

[Al M.]

Certainly possible with digital but perhaps rarer due to digital kit generating more noise than pure analog. Getting an 'analog' like soundstage might even be possible without changing your DAC - have you tried using isolation transformers between DAC and amp?

This is an interesting point. Apart from my massive external power supplies providing much cleaner (and more stable) power to my amps, thus lowering the noise floor, they may also shield the amps from RF noise generated by the digital rig.

By the way, my digital rig also is on a massive power conditioner (Tice Power Block II).