Digital Director/ProUSB: No need for a dedicated streamer/server?

[Peter Bomberg]

So I guess my question is for those of you that have a high end Streamer/Server have you compared it to Roon via the Renderer v2? I was originally going to use a Aurender but am thinking Roon via the Rendered will be the way to go.

However if anyone has done a comparison I would love to hear your experaince.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

Ha! I think we’re all the same

If I do get either the DD or a steamer/server I’ll report back my findings here.

I'll chime in here and add my two cents. We have been long time Roon users, but as of late, the performance has dropped off. This seems to be software related, as the hardware we were using did not change. Simply switching to an entry level Aurender made a massive difference in my home system. With constantly updated software, all server products are susceptible to changes without the user consent. Be warned! At this point, Roon may be fixed... you can't really know. Servers are a software/computer game which is the main reason MSB has stayed out of those waters. Modern computers have relatively short lifespans (shorter than ever these days) and long term support really comes down to software. If buying a new server is a stretch, I would always recommend caution as it can be some of the most volatile (and changeable) product to purchase. If you can afford it, have fun! There is some wild stuff out there.

We made the DD to help bridge the gap and bring performance of all sources higher. Keep in mind the isolation the DD provides is only half of its function. The new processors are 8X the performance of the Premier DAC and include all new digital filters. Just to say, it's not a slight performance change, it is a different product entirely

Annnnnd, when you have the DD, the renderer can really shine. Now, instead of injecting network noise into the DAC, it is fully isolated much like the Pro USB module. Best of both worlds. Anyways, take all of that with my manufacturer's bias

 

[Daniel Gullman]

So I guess my question is for those of you that have a high end Streamer/Server have you compared it to Roon via the Renderer v2? I was originally going to use a Aurender but am thinking Roon via the Rendered will be the way to go.

However if anyone has done a comparison I would love to hear your experaince.

See my previous comment on Roon Vs Aurender.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

See my previous comment on Roon Vs Aurender.

@Daniel Gullman , well my dilemma is largely thank s to you

My original thinking was a Aurender N20 with a Premier Stack (including the DD) but then in great conversations with Jamie (TAE) and Vince I became more and more convinced that the Reference and Renderer were the way to go. And all was good until the Cascade was released so on the 23rd of Aug I will listen to the 2 side by side and decide. My gut feeling is the Cascade is the better long term approach but due to layout constraints if I go with M205's I will not be able to add an external streamer in the future.

I have more CPU power and bandwidth on my computer systems but a severe lack of space , now there is an option of adding a streamer controlled via SW (Tidal Connect or Roon) via a fiber optic connection and the ProISL Interface (native or via USB). Love to get your thoughts on that approach

 

[Daniel Gullman]

@Daniel Gullman , well my dilemma is largely thank s to you

My original thinking was a Aurender N20 with a Premier Stack (including the DD) but then in great conversations with Jamie (TAE) and Vince I became more and more convinced that the Reference and Renderer were the way to go. And all was good until the Cascade was released so on the 23rd of Aug I will listen to the 2 side by side and decide. My gut feeling is the Cascade is the better long term approach but due to layout constraints if I go with M205's I will not be able to add an external streamer in the future.

I have more CPU power and bandwidth on my computer systems but a severe lack of space , now there is an option of adding a streamer controlled via SW (Tidal Connect or Roon) via a fiber optic connection and the ProISL Interface (native or via USB). Love to get your thoughts on that approach

hahaha, yes, the constantly evolving landscape of digital products. The one area of high end audio that doesn't sit still for a day.

If there is even a chance, however slight, that the Cascade could be an option for you... I would put all other purchases on hold and use whatever source you have in order to make that happen. Get that AB, because this new DAC makes these other comparisons seem trivial. It's a game changer on many levels.

We just used the Antipodes Oladra with Roon and the renderer input at the Munich High End show to great results, it can be done. This is why we do easily updateable/swappable input modules. I think finding a software experience you really enjoy using on a daily basis and then testing the performance after to see if it holds up is a good approach. Just make sure whatever you end up with isn't mucking about in the audio. That is all too common. We have bit-perfect test files you can use to verify bit perfect playback on an MSB DAC from the source.

I would say shoot for a demo of anything you are considering. Beg, borrow, or steal before buying so you can know what you are actually getting. Compare to your current source and see if the upgrade is worth it to you, the only metric that actually matters. Sorry I can't give you any absolutes!

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

when you have the DD, the renderer can really shine. Now, instead of injecting network noise into the DAC, it is fully isolated much like the Pro USB module

Thanks, Daniel.

Maybe a server with Pro ISL output module (capable to directly connect to MSB DACs I mean) will be an important variable to consider in future. This option could make me wait before purchasing a DD for my Reference.
Another controversial argument is:: if I’m currently using the Pro USB/Pro ISL connection, adding the DD in future, would make the Pro USB redundant? Assuming my server (Innuos Statement) has only a USB output, which is the best connection when you add the DD: still USB Pro/Pro ISL > DD > Pro ISL > DAC?
I’d have to place the DD 7 meters far from the DAC, the Pro ISL wire is not a problem (as I already know) but the second optical wire for control/display functions could work on that longer run?

 

[itay123]

We may see a trend with most streaming/server manufacturers or at least those who really care about perfect integration with the Lateset Tecnology from MSB and Dacs,
by adding a dedicated Pro ISL connection so that they will no longer need alternative ways such as various adapters.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

hahaha, yes, the constantly evolving landscape of digital products. The one area of high end audio that doesn't sit still for a day.

If there is even a chance, however slight, that the Cascade could be an option for you... I would put all other purchases on hold and use whatever source you have in order to make that happen. Get that AB, because this new DAC makes these other comparisons seem trivial. It's a game changer on many levels.

We just used the Antipodes Oladra with Roon and the renderer input at the Munich High End show to great results, it can be done. This is why we do easily updateable/swappable input modules. I think finding a software experience you really enjoy using on a daily basis and then testing the performance after to see if it holds up is a good approach. Just make sure whatever you end up with isn't mucking about in the audio. That is all too common. We have bit-perfect test files you can use to verify bit perfect playback on an MSB DAC from the source.

I would say shoot for a demo of anything you are considering. Beg, borrow, or steal before buying so you can know what you are actually getting. Compare to your current source and see if the upgrade is worth it to you, the only metric that actually matters. Sorry I can't give you any absolutes!

Well what you described is the plan on the 23rd of Aug, Vince Galbo, Jamie Pauls and I are comparing my 4 options, Reference with S202, Reference with M205, Cascade with S202, Cascade with M205, they are all within the realm of the possible, the question is would I rather travel for the 100K or have the better SQ. The demo will tell.

Cables are all Audioquest Thunderbird, DJM Ethernet Filter, Roon direct to the Renderer and the speakers Estelon X Diamonds MkII

 

[Peter Bomberg]

We may see a trend with most streaming/server manufacturers or at least those who really care about perfect integration with the Lateset Tecnology from MSB and Dacs,
by adding a dedicated Pro ISL connection so that they will no longer need alternative ways such as various adapters.

I would be all in favor of standard adapters but my question is still Streamer/Server vs Renderer, that being said I would love Pro ISL to become a widely implemented standard as it means I can put the streamer in my server room and connect it via Fiber

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Thanks, Daniel.

Maybe a server with Pro ISL output module (capable to directly connect to MSB DACs I mean) will be an important variable to consider in future. This option could make me wait before purchasing a DD for my Reference.
Another controversial argument is:: if I’m currently using the Pro USB/Pro ISL connection, adding the DD in future, would make the Pro USB redundant? Assuming my server (Innuos Statement) has only a USB output, which is the best connection when you add the DD: still USB Pro/Pro ISL > DD > Pro ISL > DAC?
I’d have to place the DD 7 meters far from the DAC, the Pro ISL wire is not a problem (as I already know) but the second optical wire for control/display functions could work on that longer run?

In theory 1KM for a good quality active fiber connection, but the question is how good is the server. I have experienced a bunch of networking gear whose active implementations only good enough for 1/2 the theoretical limit, especially at high bandwidth, but I have never asked what is the MSB data rate limit, based on it being audio oriented I would guess 1Gbps,, but I am hoping the next gen is a 10G native interface (as I run 10/40)

 

[Daniel Gullman]

Thanks, Daniel.

Maybe a server with Pro ISL output module (capable to directly connect to MSB DACs I mean) will be an important variable to consider in future. This option could make me wait before purchasing a DD for my Reference.
Another controversial argument is:: if I’m currently using the Pro USB/Pro ISL connection, adding the DD in future, would make the Pro USB redundant? Assuming my server (Innuos Statement) has only a USB output, which is the best connection when you add the DD: still USB Pro/Pro ISL > DD > Pro ISL > DAC?
I’d have to place the DD 7 meters far from the DAC, the Pro ISL wire is not a problem (as I already know) but the second optical wire for control/display functions could work on that longer run?

Well, the good news is, we have 5 companies currently integrating the Pro ISL output. These will have direct outputs that can be placed any distance from the MSB DAC. Perhaps this will also encourage more manufacturers to implement this technology across their products. The rising tide floats all boats etc. Regardless of "quality", all servers are still too noisy to be near analog signals. Pro USB with the DD is bordering on hat on a hat, but the extra isolation isn't a complete waste. More segmentation the better. We don't feel that it is necessary, but for those who already own one, no reason not to continue using it. We have also run the DD 10M from the DAC source, so your 7 meter run should not be a problem. The second communication cable is just for DAC setup and does not send audio. It is actually shut off during playback.

Well what you described is the plan on the 23rd of Aug, Vince Galbo, Jamie Pauls and I are comparing my 4 options, Reference with S202, Reference with M205, Cascade with S202, Cascade with M205, they are all within the realm of the possible, the question is would I rather travel for the 100K or have the better SQ. The demo will tell.

Keep us updated, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. I have the X Diamonds Mk II in my home system as well.

You are correct, no one needs 1 km of cabling, but what is really cool is how advanced and well engineered this technology is. We are just starting to unlock its potential. The new Cascade really starts to take advantage of that data highway as well. Cool stuff.

 

[asiufy]

Hi Alex,

Where in the network playback chain would you recommend the DJM filter be deployed for maximum benefit? Just before the Renderer V2 module in the Digital Director? Does this filter make any alleged sonic contribution of the ethernet cable irrelevant?

Yes. I have a cheap Ethernet cable from the wall to the DJM, and then from the DJM to the Director, I use a nice Kubala-Sosna Ethernet cable.
Cable is still relevant, but of course, context is everything. On my system, it does make a difference, even if I swap the cables, and use the good cable first, I can hear it. I did find that I could get away with an inexpensive cable before the filter, though.

 

[divertiti]

Well, the good news is, we have 5 companies currently integrating the Pro ISL output. These will have direct outputs that can be placed any distance from the MSB DAC. Perhaps this will also encourage more manufacturers to implement this technology across their products. The rising tide floats all boats etc. Regardless of "quality", all servers are still too noisy to be near analog signals. Pro USB with the DD is bordering on hat on a hat, but the extra isolation isn't a complete waste. More segmentation the better. We don't feel that it is necessary, but for those who already own one, no reason not to continue using it. We have also run the DD 10M from the DAC source, so your 7 meter run should not be a problem. The second communication cable is just for DAC setup and does not send audio. It is actually shut off during playback.


Keep us updated, I will be curious to hear your thoughts. I have the X Diamonds Mk II in my home system as well.

You are correct, no one needs 1 km of cabling, but what is really cool is how advanced and well engineered this technology is. We are just starting to unlock its potential. The new Cascade really starts to take advantage of that data highway as well. Cool stuff.

Hi Daniel, is Innous one of the 5 companies? If so, do you know how they plan on adding this output to the Statement? Would it be possible to run the Pro ISL output from the servers to the Pro USB receiving module for those without DD? Thanks.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

I think Innuos is working on it, the bad news is that our Statement cannot sport that new module, only new line of products (like ZEN NG and ZENith NG). So we must wait for a new flagship model.
If I’m not wrong the new module will permit a direct connection from the server/streamer directly to the ProISL of the DAC (or DD).

 

[divertiti]

I think Innuos is working on it, the bad news is that our Statement cannot sport that new module, only new line of products (like ZEN NG and ZENith NG). So we must wait for a new flagship model.
If I’m not wrong the new module will permit a direct connection from the server/streamer directly to the ProISL of the DAC (or DD).

That is bad news indeed. I hope Innuos shows respect to the supporters of their flagship products and create an easy upgrade path. Did Nuno mention anything in this regard?

 

[Daniel Gullman]

That is bad news indeed. I hope Innuos shows respect to the supporters of their flagship products and create an easy upgrade path. Did Nuno mention anything in this regard?

I will let Innous disclose what they are developing, but as a manufacturer, I can recommend reaching out early to let them know what you are interested in. Feedback from customers clarifying the demand is always helpful and may even change what is being developed! Hit up Nuno and ask for details directly. We are excited for new partners, but this is mostly uncharted territory for this technology so there will be some growing pains.

 

[luca.pelliccioli]

Unfortunately I was told directly from Nuno about that. He said that the current Statement cannot use the new modules in general (and the ProISL in particular) due to technical reasons (I prefer he eventually explains which ones, to avoid wrong words, sorry). We need to be patient, I’m afraid.

 

[Daniel Gullman]

Unfortunately I was told directly from Nuno about that. He said that the current Statement cannot use the new modules in general (and the ProISL in particular) due to technical reasons (I prefer he eventually explains which ones, to avoid wrong words, sorry). We need to be patient, I’m afraid.

:/

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Hi Daniel, is Innous one of the 5 companies? If so, do you know how they plan on adding this output to the Statement? Would it be possible to run the Pro ISL output from the servers to the Pro USB receiving module for those without DD? Thanks.

Would Aurender be on the list of 5?

 

[Koegz]

I see you removed the Select model from the line up. What are select owners supposed to think?