Diminishing returns / return on investment
- Thread starter thedudeabides
- Start date
As Peter O'Toole used to say "When the horse of opportunity come galloping by jump on it because it may not come your way again."
Of course I would say this but given the number of people I help with very nice equipment and poor sound it is for two channel systems the following: speaker/listener placement and room acoustics, in particular fixing the bass issues that 95% (99%?) of systems have.
By the time we are through the first round of major low hanging acoustic and placement issues I'd estimate the investment is between 5 and 20% of system cost but is a sonic difference of 100%++++
The problem I often find is that many have no idea (no internal reference) of what 'good' sounds like. I'm not saying I have golden ears but after going to many people's homes you develop a sense of right and wrong. It's very quick for me to listen to something for 1 minute and pretty much have a quite accurate assessment of their room's acoustic issues (or system setup issues) which can then be validated scientifically through acoustic measurement and analysis.
Plus the audio review magazines both online and print have little interest in system setup or room acoustics, because they don't pay the bills through large ads. Instead many get sucked into the long process of equipment swapping that never really gets them to the end game, which is when they just sit down and listen to music without critically evaluating the negative aspects of their system and thinking on how it could be improved.
Excellent post. The speaker/listener/room relationship is the key to great sound. Once that is sorted out, one can hear what the equipment is really capable of sounding like. And having a reference is the key to knowing how real it sounds (if that is the goal).
Frustrating maybe but I wouldn't call it sad GG. Its a voluntory hobby and aside from sound aspects there's a social side to it that can be rewarding in spite of crappy sound. There's no shortage of motivation and temptation everywhere, so that's not the enigma.
More often than not the clients I visit already have a great deal of money and time invested in their systems and we just have to recycle the equipment and the money's there. Sometimes its about spending less and they can end with a nice balance back in their pockets. You can't win them all, for some hearing is believing and others have a hard time accepting that they've been conned by the Absolutes. I have clients coming back after several years when they're ready for a different approach, it all depends.
david
Hearing is believing, you're invited.
Exactly!
If you expect true scale then you need the space to recreate it, no system can fight limitations of physical boundaries but given the right room its doable. Even in a smaller space you can have a system that will interact and connect with you on the level of live music. If the system is natural in its presentation the human brain will often take over and fill in the blanks giving you the live experience on a smaller scale. Its when you're dealing with systems exhibiting some unnatural character that your mind and body will reject as real, no matter how lavish and expensive the system. Specialty of the Absolute.
david
If I had a listening room that was the size of the room in the referenced "jap" posted youtube video, I have no doubt the experience would move me further down the trail of coming closer to live. I have heard incredible systems in that sized room at previous audio shows. Certainly steps closer than what is possible in even a very large personal living space but still not live.
You and I get to disagree.
You and I get to disagree.
You might not believe me but we can't disagree on something you haven't heard. If you're ever in Utah, come by. As for as the sound in that room, we're in total agreement there.
david
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I've been an audio enthusiast for close to 50 years and was in the audio industry for about 20 years. I have been in hundreds of homes with high end audio systems of the very highest caliber and in most of the well respected high end dealer show rooms around the country. No offense but I find it a bit problematic to believe that somehow you and only you have discovered the magic elixir to make a home audio system sound like the real thing.
Who said that I'm the only one or it's a magic elixir, it's not. All I'm saying is that it can be done and it has been done, the room is key then the rest will follow. And no offense taken.
david
I was in the same boat as a lot of folks. For a couple of decades. Always looking for something better. Even got a job in the industry, in no small part, due to accommodation pricing on the very expensive gear I wanted. Was I happy? At times. It got to the point where I rarely used the system; too many flaws. So, I sold it.
Then, I read this and it completely changed my outlook: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
Do I really care if my upper mids could be a bit more liquid, or the lower bass better articulated? NO! This being said, I'm referring to components of certain (if you will) quality, but in terms of seeking out that last bit, I'd rather spend my time looking for records.
Then, I read this and it completely changed my outlook: http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
Do I really care if my upper mids could be a bit more liquid, or the lower bass better articulated? NO! This being said, I'm referring to components of certain (if you will) quality, but in terms of seeking out that last bit, I'd rather spend my time looking for records.
Of course I would say this but given the number of people I help with very nice equipment and poor sound it is for two channel systems the following: speaker/listener placement and room acoustics, in particular fixing the bass issues that 95% (99%?) of systems have.
By the time we are through the first round of major low hanging acoustic and placement issues I'd estimate the investment is between 5 and 20% of system cost but is a sonic difference of 100%++++
The problem I often find is that many have no idea (no internal reference) of what 'good' sounds like. I'm not saying I have golden ears but after going to many people's homes you develop a sense of right and wrong. It's very quick for me to listen to something for 1 minute and pretty much have a quite accurate assessment of their room's acoustic issues (or system setup issues) which can then be validated scientifically through acoustic measurement and analysis.
Plus the audio review magazines both online and print have little interest in system setup or room acoustics, because they don't pay the bills through large ads. Instead many get sucked into the long process of equipment swapping that never really gets them to the end game, which is when they just sit down and listen to music without critically evaluating the negative aspects of their system and thinking on how it could be improved.
Nyal, I agree with you on most of the things you say, but you find in this hobby people have very different realism triggers. I am assuming you hone in right away on thick, sluggish, overhanging bass. But many folks in this hobby may have been listening to this same bass for 30+ years, and for them it is not sluggish or colored at all - it's actually right to them. Instead, they focus on the jump factor, sound stage size, harmonic richness of tubes, etc. Likewise if you have been sneaking into your local jazz or blues club since you were 18. Most clubs are just neighborhood joints with a lot of glass along the bar and no acoustic treatments.
I also have listened to many, many people's systems, and while many are excellent, most to me they are less than sublime while many guys who have assembled them over the years think they have reached nirvana. Ditto for many long-established dealers. Reality is that a lot of this hobby is not about what is right or wrong scientifically, but is relative to one's prior experience and how one's references are actually formed...
Of course I would say this but given the number of people I help with very nice equipment and poor sound it is for two channel systems the following: speaker/listener placement and room acoustics, in particular fixing the bass issues that 95% (99%?) of systems have.
By the time we are through the first round of major low hanging acoustic and placement issues I'd estimate the investment is between 5 and 20% of system cost but is a sonic difference of 100%++++
The problem I often find is that many have no idea (no internal reference) of what 'good' sounds like. I'm not saying I have golden ears but after going to many people's homes you develop a sense of right and wrong. It's very quick for me to listen to something for 1 minute and pretty much have a quite accurate assessment of their room's acoustic issues (or system setup issues) which can then be validated scientifically through acoustic measurement and analysis.
Plus the audio review magazines both online and print have little interest in system setup or room acoustics, because they don't pay the bills through large ads. Instead many get sucked into the long process of equipment swapping that never really gets them to the end game, which is when they just sit down and listen to music without critically evaluating the negative aspects of their system and thinking on how it could be improved.
I have to agree with these posts. Especially the part about the room. I have never heard a live reproduction from a system setup for convenience, compromise or what is visually acceptable in a domestic space. Pushing even the best speakers up near the back/side walls in an average room will never get you there. I can always hear the speakers and the room interaction in these cases.
Having attended countless jazz shows (most recent was seeing Ravi Coltrane) it is possible to reproduce this in a domestic setting. A good system will even allow you to get that live sensation at a lower volume that will allow you to listen without earplugs. In order of importance the room/treatments, speakers, and a strong analog front end will all get you there. Also give me quality watts over hundreds and thousands of watts any day. But like discussing building listening rooms from scratch/treatments the former isn't sexy and will rarely (never) bring in the advertising dollars.
I was emailing Michael Fremer a couple of months ago recommending he review an LP reissue and we started talking about hifi systems. Even he admits the best system he's heard aren't his XLFs in his small listening room, but a custom horn system built around an uncompromised listening space.
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It is a great Stereophile article. The guy, as a psychology professor, really knows what he is talking about, from a theoretical stand point. But then, a lot of the advice is kind of like "eat healthy" and "floss your teeth". Most people know they should cut down on fatty foods or take good care of their dental health, but don't.
When your good friend comes to town, do you want to go to a juice bar to drink a kale smoothie? Hell no! How about salad with extra creamy dressing, that small dinosaur-sized steak and buttery mashed potatoes, and several bottles of great wine! Human habits are very hard to overcome. You already intellectually understand that what you are chasing high end audio is "an illusion", "something known to false yet felt to be true". And which with every improvement, small and large, further intensifies our desire toward the feeling the real thing gives us...
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