You'll enjoy this drive Jack specially the middle part driving the canyon in Arizona and if you make it here and have some time there are fun mountain roads to drive fast on and the National Parks won't disappoint either!
david
dipping my toe into the ddk flow.....
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
You'll enjoy this drive Jack specially the middle part driving the canyon in Arizona and if you make it here and have some time there are fun mountain roads to drive fast on and the National Parks won't disappoint either!
david
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I bet the two of you were in hog's heaven. I'm glad Mike was able to visit you David. Having done the pilgrimage myself I can say that reaching Cedar City and touring David's sound room was an experience that is difficult to truly put into words unless you hear it yourself.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I flew from Orange County to Las Vegas and then took the St George Shuttle from the airport to St George where David met me and drove to Cedar City. The drive is a spectacular view
Your visit was great Steve, we had the right amount of time to soak things in, chill and even take in some of the scenery
.david
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
David, do you have one picture or two of the canyon scenery nearby?
It sounds like a beautiful spinning tour before you arrive to your spinning/touring room...home.
The perfect prelude/foreplay before the magical/musical moment...main act. Vice versa. Yes?
It sounds like a beautiful spinning tour before you arrive to your spinning/touring room...home.
The perfect prelude/foreplay before the magical/musical moment...main act. Vice versa. Yes?
I got to David's home around noon (my phone's sat navigation screwed me up in some way (got off the freeway at the wrong exit) and cost me 30 minutes), and we immediately went downstairs into his lair.
we started listening with the Thorens Reference, and this had the vintage SME 3012 arm with an Ortofon SPU 095 cartridge, feeding the Lamm LP2 phono. we listened to a couple of cuts, it had lots of body and weight, and sounded beautiful......and turned out to be my least favorite (but still 'a favorite' and enjoyable) of the vintage set-ups. a note......that for myself, I did not ask David to change to different cartridges to isolate the tt's character, from cartridges. so my comments are for the total of the chain involved. hard for me to know what part of the sound was the Thorens, what was the SPU and what was the LP2 of what I heard. I was only starting to 'get' what was going on at this point. it was simply music, and I was adapting to connecting on a different level and way than I'm use to in my system. less organized, but more direct......and fast on a micro-dynamic level. there were things missing or less evident than what I'm use to, but I did not care so much about that.
next came the EMT 927F, and we listened to another SME 3012 arm with the Neumann DST-62 cartridge. but now we were listening through the Lamm LP1 Reference, the heavy artillery. to my ears, this was a whole different level of connection. more nuanced, faster and more vivid, lower noise floor, hearing quite a ways deeper into the music. we listened to 4 or 5 cuts on the 927 and the music was flowing and projecting. and that is the word I would use.....'projecting'. the music is pushed into the room. the concept of a soundstage is not so much evident. when we first sat down David mentioned that large orchestral music did not really work as well on this system. and I told him that what I wanted him to do was to play the music that showed off best what the system could do. play to it's strengths. personally I love small combo jazz, vocals, and string quartets. so that is what he played.
then next we moved to the American Sound tt, with another SME 3012 and another Neumann cartridge, the DST. and again, the Lamm LP1. now all those things the 927 did were moved up a notch or two. I cannot say how much the change from 927 to AS, compared to changing between the two Neumann cartridges, mattered. but this was clearly a step up in degrees of direct musical connection. the music was even a little more micro-dynamically alive. we played this set-up for an hour or more. at one point David put on a live Miles Davis recording from 1964 and played a whole side (20+ minutes) at warp 10....maybe 105 or so db. it was a small jazz club front row type experience. not sure I've heard Miles sound better. I needed to be properly medicated to endure a session like that, but I knew I would be driving back soon. so instead my head rang for a while afterwards. but.....it was worth it.
lastly David did hook up the Air Force One and we listened. it was nice, and a totally different experience from the other three. I'm not sure David's system is set up to show the AF1 in it's best light since sound staging and top and bottom extension are not strengths of the big bad Bioners. but the AF1 none the less is a formidable tt but needs a system that plays to it's strengths.
more later.....
we started listening with the Thorens Reference, and this had the vintage SME 3012 arm with an Ortofon SPU 095 cartridge, feeding the Lamm LP2 phono. we listened to a couple of cuts, it had lots of body and weight, and sounded beautiful......and turned out to be my least favorite (but still 'a favorite' and enjoyable) of the vintage set-ups. a note......that for myself, I did not ask David to change to different cartridges to isolate the tt's character, from cartridges. so my comments are for the total of the chain involved. hard for me to know what part of the sound was the Thorens, what was the SPU and what was the LP2 of what I heard. I was only starting to 'get' what was going on at this point. it was simply music, and I was adapting to connecting on a different level and way than I'm use to in my system. less organized, but more direct......and fast on a micro-dynamic level. there were things missing or less evident than what I'm use to, but I did not care so much about that.
next came the EMT 927F, and we listened to another SME 3012 arm with the Neumann DST-62 cartridge. but now we were listening through the Lamm LP1 Reference, the heavy artillery. to my ears, this was a whole different level of connection. more nuanced, faster and more vivid, lower noise floor, hearing quite a ways deeper into the music. we listened to 4 or 5 cuts on the 927 and the music was flowing and projecting. and that is the word I would use.....'projecting'. the music is pushed into the room. the concept of a soundstage is not so much evident. when we first sat down David mentioned that large orchestral music did not really work as well on this system. and I told him that what I wanted him to do was to play the music that showed off best what the system could do. play to it's strengths. personally I love small combo jazz, vocals, and string quartets. so that is what he played.
then next we moved to the American Sound tt, with another SME 3012 and another Neumann cartridge, the DST. and again, the Lamm LP1. now all those things the 927 did were moved up a notch or two. I cannot say how much the change from 927 to AS, compared to changing between the two Neumann cartridges, mattered. but this was clearly a step up in degrees of direct musical connection. the music was even a little more micro-dynamically alive. we played this set-up for an hour or more. at one point David put on a live Miles Davis recording from 1964 and played a whole side (20+ minutes) at warp 10....maybe 105 or so db. it was a small jazz club front row type experience. not sure I've heard Miles sound better. I needed to be properly medicated to endure a session like that, but I knew I would be driving back soon. so instead my head rang for a while afterwards. but.....it was worth it.
lastly David did hook up the Air Force One and we listened. it was nice, and a totally different experience from the other three. I'm not sure David's system is set up to show the AF1 in it's best light since sound staging and top and bottom extension are not strengths of the big bad Bioners. but the AF1 none the less is a formidable tt but needs a system that plays to it's strengths.
more later.....
Great reading, Mike. Thank you so much for sharing your impression and to David for the gracious invitation. These are the kinds of threads I love to read on this forum. I have always hoped that David would gather enough interest to try to manufacture six or so new American Sound turntables from his plans. I have no idea what it would cost, but from every report I have read in these pages of David's system, this turntable seems to be the benchmark against which the others are judged. I don't understand why someone does not try to recreate this turntable.
Can I ask you about the sense of presence you heard? You touched on extension and sound staging, but I'm curious about your sense that that jazz combo was in the room with you or whether you felt like you were sitting in the first row of that jazz club. I recall a description by Steve of lying down on the floor on his back and soaking in the sound of the music. The implication was that it sounded great from every location within the room, and our conventional way of describing things like imaging and sound staging and scale, etc, just did not matter, because the impression was that he was in the presence of real music. Audiophile descriptions, be damned.
Musical involvement is what you seem to be after. Could you expand on that a bit? Thanks.
Can I ask you about the sense of presence you heard? You touched on extension and sound staging, but I'm curious about your sense that that jazz combo was in the room with you or whether you felt like you were sitting in the first row of that jazz club. I recall a description by Steve of lying down on the floor on his back and soaking in the sound of the music. The implication was that it sounded great from every location within the room, and our conventional way of describing things like imaging and sound staging and scale, etc, just did not matter, because the impression was that he was in the presence of real music. Audiophile descriptions, be damned.
Musical involvement is what you seem to be after. Could you expand on that a bit? Thanks.
The Thorens was handicapped by the old LP2 vs the LP1 and every cartridge I know is severely handicapped compared to the Neumanns. Nevertheless it's set up to sound very different than the others so everyone will have a different favorite depending on mood and priorities and it takes more than a couple of tracks to hear it's unique nuances.
You're absolutely right Mike, my choice is to energize the room to have the direct visceral physical impact and that type of emotional connection with music as one would with live musicians. The concept of a framed soundstage and organized images for me is a hifi artifact and a distraction as interesting as it might be that never happens in real life. My room is large enough to portray a life like facsimile of real musicians but not 100+ of a full orchestra hence my comment otherwise the system is fully capable of it, not enough time to go there on this trip.
then next we moved to the American Sound tt, with another SME 3012 and another Neumann cartridge, the DST. and again, the Lamm LP1. now all those things the 927 did were moved up a notch or two. I cannot say how much the change from 927 to AS, compared to changing between the two Neumann cartridges, mattered. but this was clearly a step up in degrees of direct musical connection. the music was even a little more micro-dynamically alive. we played this set-up for an hour or more. at one point David put on a live Miles Davis recording from 1964 and played a whole side (20+ minutes) at warp 10....maybe 105 or so db. it was a small jazz club front row type experience. not sure I've heard Miles sound better. I needed to be properly medicated to endure a session like that, but I knew I would be driving back soon. so instead my head rang for a while afterwards. but.....it was worth it.
lastly David did hook up the Air Force One and we listened. it was nice, and a totally different experience from the other three. I'm not sure David's system is set up to show the AF1 in it's best light since sound staging and top and bottom extension are not strengths of the big bad Bionors. but the AF1 none the less is a formidable tt but needs a system that plays to it's strengths.
more later.....
Good observation, staging as you refer to it is something that I worked hard to eliminate through setup, cabling, etc., different approach to most systems otherwise the Bionors can image in that way too. Never thought about it but I think you have a valid point regarding the AF-1, it is a modern design with different sonic goals than my vintage tables no different than the approach of modern cartridge designers from those of the 60's & 70's which I prefer. We also went from full on attack of horns on horns to a mild romantic Debussy string quartet without a pause making the contrast between the two philosophies even starker... Sorry for the head ringing but no time for liquid medication needed in a club environment, next time
!david
Just fyi, I used the same phono across all including the Thorens and rotated the same SPU. We then did a compare of SPU, Neumann, and Koetsu RSP on the AS. But I was there for 2 days and made DDK work hard moving that phono - hell I was even scared to touch his TTs to put an LP on so he had to get up and do it with me going back and forth.
Those are fantastic scenery you live around Dave. ...Majestic and calm...perfect for long strolls.
And you also have beautiful mountains and forests and lakes.
Do you have moose? ...And beaver?
* Bears and eagles I know you have.
And you also have beautiful mountains and forests and lakes.
Do you have moose? ...And beaver?
* Bears and eagles I know you have.
agree on the American Sound, that it's a sound you would like to hear in more contexts to see how it would translate. and......while no doubt the SME 3012 is a fine tonearm, I'd love to hear my Durand Sapphire Telos tone arm and Goldfinger Statement cartridge on the American Sound to understand cause and effect.
i had to really think about this for a while to be able to articulate an answer. David's system projects information differently than I'm use to. in many ways it does resemble the live experience more in that it's less a sense of someone there, but the projected sound is more real in terms of speed and power within a more limited frequency range. what I'm use to is that you are getting a sense of this person or instrument is present physically no matter how complex the music gets......in my room that happens auto-magically. in David's system it does not do that, but the power of the music is at a higher and less processed level. both approaches have parts of each other, but the strengths are different. possibly the greater frequency extension top and bottom in my system might influence this. the question becomes which approach does one prefer, and which approach communicates all types of music one wants to experience.
personal choices.
i did not really walk around David's room to comment on the 'every location' part.....but that would not surprise me. i would expect it to stay together at a much wider seating variance or height. in the far-field where we sat obviously it's a large sound stage if I can even use that term.
Last edited:
Mike,
Great to read your posts about David system.
Can you list the recordings you have been listening? It would help to understand your comments. I was a little upset of you description of sound levels - except for the warp10 how did the sound level you listen compare to your average listening level in your system?
Great to read your posts about David system.
Can you list the recordings you have been listening? It would help to understand your comments. I was a little upset of you description of sound levels - except for the warp10 how did the sound level you listen compare to your average listening level in your system?
I will list the recordings I can recall from these sessions when I get home tonight. I just have not got that far yet.
as far as listening levels compared to mine, it's so different since I was sitting likely 25+ feet away from the drivers in David's room, and in my system I'm about 8 feet away.
but relatively most of the music at David's was maybe around 80-85db at my listening position, whereas in my system I'm more typically in the 68db-75db range listening by myself, and maybe 75-80db with a group in my room. but the character of the system and the smaller scale music as well as much less bass extension all contribute to a bit more aggressive SPL's at David's.
and we listened to zero orchestral where you typically have such wide variance of SPL levels. most of what we listened to was quite constant in levels. and the lack of any remote volume control might have some effect on levels too.
David might have more accurate information on this than my seat of the pants estimates.
Similar threads
