Do higher end subwoofer cables make for a sound quality improvement?

[Charles S]

What are the dimensions of your room and the type of walls?

Microstrip, my room is a full 40' long and I keep the rear door open so that the bass is almost as strong downstairs in the kitchen. My room is 15.5' wide. It is an A-Frame with 5' side walls, 8 ' ceiling heavily blown popcorn as shown in numerous photographs. It is drywall wall within wall construction and constructed completely of 2x6's, the whole shebang including the garage below and roof. The back of the inside wall is braced on all sides everywhere with some kind of composite wood between which there is massive insulation. It cost about 10K to do this about 5 years ago. Then there is the outside wall and on the other side of it is brick. The floor is 3/4" plywood over 40 stiffened Lowe's wooden I-Beams and 3/4" oak hardwood finished out by Buddy Allen, sanded, and with a gym seal in my house. The room is so sturdy that the 4-car garage below needs no support with poles, etc. It has its own dedicate HVAC and 4 20 amp lines. I did not mean to start an argument. I was hoping that someone might provide an explanation as to why the plain Jane woofers of the XVX and WAMM are so rugged and help me to understand my room better. I really do have amazing infrasonic bass. I'm not going to be browbeat into denial about this. I remember watching Jupiter Ascending and in the scene after her Majesty received her royal credentials, there was a private conversation with her consort, and all of a sudden, the room was filled with an almost imperceptible infrasonic note at between .02 and .2 watts. I played it over and over. It was amazing.

 

[mtemur]

I'm happy with 30 Hz without any loss of efficiency. Anything below that causes acoustic problems. The rooms need to be treated extremely acoustically. Then they no longer feel like a cozy living room. I had that years ago, and I threw everything out, leaving only what was necessary to enjoy the music.
Rarely have I heard a truly good concept that works flawlessly at 20 Hz. A double bass array can do that, but it's too much effort for me.

View attachment 148704

P.S backwall looks equal

I used to love those Genelecs. Around 1999 I was in the market for Genelec 1037Bs but I was a bit short on cash which led me towards hifi.

 

[sbo6]

Your pretension is wrong. And "In Quiet Cathedral" is a benchmark album for low bass. I have plenty of time. Why don't you give it a spin on your system and see what happens?

I know if I give it a spin with my speakers of non - parallel walls and an ultra - tight located drivers (not discrete cabinets and far - spaced drivers) for a seamless wave launch and with dual opposing force - cancelling woofers in an exponentially tapered non - resonant cabinet designed by an actual EE, along with my 4 JL Audio reference Fathom subwoofers in a room meticulously treated (and again measured) dialed in via many hours of measuring and listening (not solely by ear) that it will sound glorious. Versus your contracted out paper drivers in a mostly MDF box with parallel walls and a nice paint job. You've been hoodwinked my friend, but if RH says it's the bees knees, you do you. We're done here.

 

[microstrip]

Microstrip, my room is a full 40' long and I keep the rear door open so that the bass is almost as strong downstairs in the kitchen. My room is 15.5' wide. It is an A-Frame with 5' side walls, 8 ' ceiling heavily blown popcorn as shown in numerous photographs. It is drywall wall within wall construction and constructed completely of 2x6's, the whole shebang including the garage below and roof. The back of the inside wall is braced on all sides everywhere with some kind of composite wood between which there is massive insulation. It cost about 10K to do this about 5 years ago. Then there is the outside wall and on the other side of it is brick. The floor is 3/4" plywood over 40 stiffened Lowe's wooden I-Beams and 3/4" oak hardwood finished out by Buddy Allen, sanded, and with a gym seal in my house. The room is so sturdy that the 4-car garage below needs no support with poles, etc. It has its own dedicate HVAC and 4 20 amp lines. I did not mean to start an argument. I was hoping that someone might provide an explanation as to why the plain Jane woofers of the XVX and WAMM are so rugged and help me to understand my room better. I really do have amazing infrasonic bass. I'm not going to be browbeat into denial about this. I remember watching Jupiter Ascending and in the scene after her Majesty received her royal credentials, there was a private conversation with her consort, and all of a sudden, the room was filled with an almost imperceptible infrasonic note at between .02 and .2 watts. I played it over and over. It was amazing.

This can easily explain your findings - your room is very long and the connection through the rear door gives you a lot of room gain at such low frequencies.

In my previous room 14x30 feet I had measured bass with several speakers, including the SoundLab's down to 19 Hz. The more common problem with medium size rooms is excess bass in the 40-100 Hz zone - in much larger rooms it some times moves to much lower frequencies. See the graph I took the same day I got the Aida's in this room - speakers just positioned taken out of box, randomly placed in the room, just to check their condition! (the first number in the horizontal scale are 15, 20 and 30Hz, vertical scale 5 dB division. The dips are due to cancellation - a much more serious problem ...

 

[Amir]

What AI think:

“Sealed box vs ported box – what's the difference? The secret to which type of bass you'll get lies in the type of subwoofer box you use. If you prefer bass that's "tight" and focused, go for a sealed box. If you want your bass to boom and you want maximum volume in your music, then you definitely want a ported box.”

 

[microstrip]

What AI think:

“Sealed box vs ported box – what's the difference? The secret to which type of bass you'll get lies in the type of subwoofer box you use. If you prefer bass that's "tight" and focused, go for a sealed box. If you want your bass to boom and you want maximum volume in your music, then you definitely want a ported box.”

Wasn't AI banned from WBF? Why are you posting such childish imbecility in an high-end forum?

 

[Amir]

Romy the Cat wrote about this in his website.

Romy prefer sealed box for bass

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3665#3665

 

[Amir]

Wasn't AI banned from WBF? Why are you posting such childish imbecility in an high-end forum?

It seems you never learned to be polite.
Sorry for you

 

[microstrip]

It seems you never learned to be polite.
Sorry for you

I am polite with you and our members, but surely I will never care to be polite with AI bots ... Should we address AI bots by "Sir" or "Madam"?

BTW, I can't understand how an admirer of Romy can write posts on "being polite"

 

[Charles S]

I know if I give it a spin with my speakers of non - parallel walls and an ultra - tight located drivers (not discrete cabinets and far - spaced drivers) for a seamless wave launch and with dual opposing force - cancelling woofers in an exponentially tapered non - resonant cabinet designed by an actual EE, along with my 4 JL Audio reference Fathom subwoofers in a room meticulously treated (and again measured) dialed in via many hours of measuring and listening (not solely by ear) that it will sound glorious. Versus your contracted out paper drivers in a mostly MDF box with parallel walls and a nice paint job. You've been hoodwinked my friend, but if RH says it's the bees knees, you do you. We're done here.

The XVX contains no MDF. Neither does my Thor. The woofer bins are made completely of 3rd generation X-Material. Extremely heavy and non-resonant. This just shows how totally wrong you are. I also notice that you have dropped RH. You began by quoting him. Why? It is because the XVX is his long-term reference and benchmark, not the M9. This is a fact.

I have not disrespected you once. "contracted cut out paper drivers" and "hoodwinked" is disrespectful. It is below you. Wilson speakers are made to an extremely high level. So is Magico. I think Magico's are fantastic speakers. I'm not jealous of folks who own Magico's and in fact one of my best friends is considering an M7 and I am encourgaing him to do so, not an XVX. He loves the clarity and accuracy of Magico. He has M3's at present but now has a larger room. He has Vitus masterpiece gear and maybe the best well thought out system I have seen. The M9 is a fantastic speaker but it's no better than a WAMM Master Chronosonic or an XVX/Subsonic system. For me and my tastes I prefer the Wilsons, but it is a matter of taste, not better or worse or a place for insults and disrespect. I don't quote reviews or reviewers very often, but you asked for measurements, and I provided you with detailed in room measurements and the magazine where MC's review can be found. You have a real problem with quoting RH because I know personally how he feels about his XVX; and also, with your denial or ignorance of the detailed measurements I provided you. When folks lose an argument, they often resort to insults/personal attacks, and this is what you are doing. I didn't ask for this argument and didn't mean to create one.

Disc Two: Track 1 Toccata per I'Elevazione has an extremely soft infrasonic note. It can only be felt and heard maybe just a little. It wonderfully pressurizes my room. The Thor registers .2 watts and the 3500's less than 3.5 watts. I'm listening right now to Track 5 Clair de lune. My Thor begins at less than .02 watts which then rachets up to .2 watts at less than .02 watts there begins an incredible infrasonic note that you can feel and hear a little. Track 8 Adagio for Strings is about the only climax on the disc. It has a finale that will severely stress most systems that have a frequency response at 20 Hz. My Thor laughs at it. I'm sure that you have a wonderful system. I have many more organ albums with extremely low bass. "In a Quiet Cathedral" is a classic and a challenge for a fine subwoofer system like yours. Why don't you buy this wonderful 2 CD album, experience it and report back.

 

[DaveC]

What AI think:

“Sealed box vs ported box – what's the difference? The secret to which type of bass you'll get lies in the type of subwoofer box you use. If you prefer bass that's "tight" and focused, go for a sealed box. If you want your bass to boom and you want maximum volume in your music, then you definitely want a ported box.”

Romy the Cat wrote about this in his website.

Romy prefer sealed box for bass

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3665#3665

The 1st post is AI gibberish and is a tired old trope about sealed vs ported that is mostly incorrect.

The 2nd is about basshorns and the difficulty of achieving 20 Hz response due to the size. This is correct, and if you instead use a ~50 Hz bass horn then you can augment with small sealed subs to get that last octave. It's not a bad way to go.

The big advantage of a ported box is it's greatly reduced excursion above the tuning frequency. If the woofer is playing above subwoofer frequencies, then there's a lot less intermodulation distortion as well. Ported boxes are also more efficient.

A couple notable speaker mfg'ers who use ported bass are TAD, Wilson and Focal. Sealed boxes do result in much smaller sized enclosures, and if the driver is limited to subwoofer frequencies then sealed may be a good choice in order to make for a smaller, less complex speaker, or maybe it's just the designer's personal preference as they do have a different sound character in some ways.

 

[bonzo75]

Romy prefer sealed box for bass

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=3665#3665

That settles the debate once and for all

 

[Amir]

The 1st post is AI gibberish and is a tired old trope about sealed vs ported that is mostly incorrect.

The 2nd is about basshorns and the difficulty of achieving 20 Hz response due to the size. This is correct, and if you instead use a ~50 Hz bass horn then you can augment with small sealed subs to get that last octave. It's not a bad way to go.

The big advantage of a ported box is it's greatly reduced excursion above the tuning frequency. If the woofer is playing above subwoofer frequencies, then there's a lot less intermodulation distortion as well. Ported boxes are also more efficient.

A couple notable speaker mfg'ers who use ported bass are TAD, Wilson and Focal. Sealed boxes do result in much smaller sized enclosures, and if the driver is limited to subwoofer frequencies then sealed may be a good choice in order to make for a smaller, less complex speaker, or maybe it's just the designer's personal preference as they do have a different sound character in some ways.

I think you agree me the important thing is the sound not technical advantage/disadvantage of different design.

 

[sbo6]

The XVX contains no MDF. Neither does my Thor. The woofer bins are made completely of 3rd generation X-Material. Extremely heavy and non-resonant. This just shows how totally wrong you are. I also notice that you have dropped RH. You began by quoting him. Why? It is because the XVX is his long-term reference and benchmark, not the M9. This is a fact.

I have not disrespected you once. "contracted cut out paper drivers" and "hoodwinked" is disrespectful. It is below you. Wilson speakers are made to an extremely high level. So is Magico. I think Magico's are fantastic speakers. I'm not jealous of folks who own Magico's and in fact one of my best friends is considering an M7 and I am encourgaing him to do so, not an XVX. He loves the clarity and accuracy of Magico. He has M3's at present but now has a larger room. He has Vitus masterpiece gear and maybe the best well thought out system I have seen. The M9 is a fantastic speaker but it's no better than a WAMM Master Chronosonic or an XVX/Subsonic system. For me and my tastes I prefer the Wilsons, but it is a matter of taste, not better or worse or a place for insults and disrespect. I don't quote reviews or reviewers very often, but you asked for measurements, and I provided you with detailed in room measurements and the magazine where MC's review can be found. You have a real problem with quoting RH because I know personally how he feels about his XVX; and also, with your denial or ignorance of the detailed measurements I provided you. When folks lose an argument, they often resort to insults/personal attacks, and this is what you are doing. I didn't ask for this argument and didn't mean to create one.

Disc Two: Track 1 Toccata per I'Elevazione has an extremely soft infrasonic note. It can only be felt and heard maybe just a little. It wonderfully pressurizes my room. The Thor registers .2 watts and the 3500's less than 3.5 watts. I'm listening right now to Track 5 Clair de lune. My Thor begins at less than .02 watts which then rachets up to .2 watts at less than .02 watts there begins an incredible infrasonic note that you can feel and hear a little. Track 8 Adagio for Strings is about the only climax on the disc. It has a finale that will severely stress most systems that have a frequency response at 20 Hz. My Thor laughs at it. I'm sure that you have a wonderful system. I have many more organ albums with extremely low bass. "In a Quiet Cathedral" is a classic and a challenge for a fine subwoofer system like yours. Why don't you buy this wonderful 2 CD album, experience it and report back.

Charles, stating that the Wilsons use paper drivers is the truth, how is that disrespectful?

Also, you never answered my question WRT RH stating publicly in his magazine that the M9 is the best speaker he's ever heard (bar none), is he lying to everyone or lying to you via your private conversations? Either way, he's lying, that speaks volumes about his credibility.

And why does RH likely own the XVX vs. the M9 (a speaker in another league)? Because the M9 is >$400K more.

Finally, the X, Y, Z whatever material Wilson uses is based on - MDF. It's a composite with other materials, but it's primarily MDF, look it up before trying to insult me by stating, "This just shows how totally wrong you are."

I also highly recommend you have your room measured if you don't have the technical ability to do so. Again, you might be surprised what you find, and not only in the bass.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Versus your contracted out paper drivers

Yes, Wilson Audio drive units are designed by the Wilson Audio people - we have plenty of information and images about this development, built in factories that have been manufacturing with precision and quality high quality drivers that have been working for decades in great top speakers, and fully tested at the factory before being assembled in the speakers. Wilson use what they find to subjectively sound the best according their preference, they do not follow dogmas or marketing trends. Audiophiles are free to like or dislike them.

in a mostly MDF box

No. MDF is an industrial term reserved for Medium-Density Fiberboard. It's an engineered wood product made by breaking down wood in wood fibers, combining them with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.

There is plenty of information about the Wilson Audio materials - stating they are simply "MDF" is erroneous.

with parallel walls

No, in general the walls are not parallel.

and a nice paint job.

Fortunately.
No problem that you seem to dislike Wilson Audio speakers, but please do not spread ambiguous information that can be misleading. No speaker is perfect.

 

[sbo6]

Yes, Wilson Audio drive units are designed by the Wilson Audio people - we have plenty of information and images about this development, built in factories that have been manufacturing with precision and quality high quality drivers that have been working for decades in great top speakers, and fully tested at the factory before being assembled in the speakers. Wilson use what they find to subjectively sound the best according their preference, they do not follow dogmas or marketing trends. Audiophiles are free to like or dislike them.







No, in general the walls are not parallel.



Fortunately.
No problem that you seem to dislike Wilson Audio speakers, but please do not spread ambiguous information that can be misleading. No speaker is perfect.

Amigo, here we go, misconstruing what I typed. Let's have at it, shall we?

"Yes, Wilson Audio drive units are designed by the Wilson Audio people - we have plenty of information and images about this development, built in factories that have been manufacturing with precision and quality high quality drivers that have been working for decades in great top speakers, and fully tested at the factory before being assembled in the speakers. Wilson use what they find to subjectively sound the best according their preference, they do not follow dogmas or marketing trends. Audiophiles are free to like or dislike them. "

I said, "contracted out", meaning they don't design the drivers from scratch, they take off the shelf drivers (like Focal, Scanspeak, etc.), have them modified and obviously don't manufacture them like Magico, YG Acoustic, Vivid Audio do. Look at the drivers, this is easy to prove.

"No. MDF is an industrial term reserved for Medium-Density Fiberboard. It's an engineered wood product made by breaking down wood in wood fibers, combining them with wax and a resin binder, and forming panels by applying high temperature and pressure.
There is plenty of information about the Wilson Audio materials - stating they are simply "MDF" is erroneous."

Here's a snippet from a Stereophile review of a Wilson speaker from a while back stating, "The CUB's rigidly braced and extremely solid cabinet is built of a combination of MDF and synthetic composite materials." Now Davey's been pretty tight - lipped about material X,Y, Z other than saying, it's a composite (so are my pants). However for the Wilson speakers' material above, MDF was the basis for the cabinets. Do you have concrete information confirming they no longer use MDF? If so, please share.

"No, in general the walls are not parallel."
I'm thinking you need glasses, because the cabinets show predominantly parallel walls. See the example of side wall below.


And finally, you stated, "No problem that you seem to dislike Wilson Audio speakers, but please do not spread ambiguous information that can be misleading. No speaker is perfect."

I do not dislike Wilson speakers, I am simply pointing out the facts. You may not like it, but it's reality. And who said any speaker is perfect? Finally, never tell anyone what to / not to say, or put words in their mouth, it's unbecoming, so curb your authority and your elitism and displace it elsewhere. We on the same page friend?

 

[DasguteOhr]

We once removed bass drivers from a Puppy. I'm no materials expert, but the cabinet material looked a lot like Corian (artificial stone powder). It can be machined like wood with a router or CNC machine.There is definitely something special in the mixture whether the surfaces need to be sealed e.g epoxy resin

P.S
Corian is a great way to build tonearm bases.It is available in all surface structures and colors, not impossible

Thorens TD 124 Tonearm Board Armbase, Panel Tonarmbrett, made of Corian | eBay

Hier können Sie ein neues Tonarmbrett aus Mineralwerkstoff Corian direkt vom Gestalter inklusive Schrauben erwerben. Sie nennen mir Ihren Tonarm und ich setze die passenden Bohrungen in das Tonarmbrett.

www.ebay.de

 

[mtemur]

We once removed bass drivers from a Puppy.

Once you remove the Puppy itself from a Watt/Puppy you’re left with very nice sounding speaker. Puppy is responsible for boomy, exaggerated, uncontrollable bass that ruins everything. Besides that, Puppy is also responsible for driving difficulty. The problem with this solution is; nobody wants to pay a full range price and to be left with a bookshelf.

 

[Argonaut]

P.S
Corian is a great way to build tonearm bases.It is available in all surface structures and colors, not impossible
View attachment 148786

Nice Ortofon RMG-309i there Stephan …

 

[DasguteOhr]

Once you remove the Puppy itself from a Watt/Puppy you’re left with very nice sounding speaker. Puppy is responsible for boomy, exaggerated, uncontrollable bass that ruins everything. Besides that, Puppy is also responsible for driving difficulty. The problem with this solution is; nobody wants to pay a full range price and to be left with a bookshelf.

Just out of curiosity, we removed one driver to see what it looked like inside. A friend swapped his Watt/Puppy for something better. The sound quality is completely different.
Audiophysic medea with active bass.