Do you need technical knowledge to consider Tube gear?
- Thread starter Johnny Vinyl
- Start date
I don't know why you would need any particular technical expertise. You just need a desire for the tube sound and the budget to deal with the eccentricities of a slightly more volatile technology. And that "slightly" is highly conditional. While we have people here who seem to suffer never-ending tube tweaks and repairs, I know guitarists who have played the same tube amp, night after night, for years, without failure or need for adjustment.
It may be that it's as much about the user as it is about the technology.
Tim
It may be that it's as much about the user as it is about the technology.
Tim
Remember Tim that tube guitar amps are all about distortion. As tubes age and maybe distortion increases if you don't stay on top of the bias changes, that might be a good thing with regards to playing guitar through tube amps. Tube amps designed for high-end stereo systems have a much more stringent criteria to meet and the two can't really be compared.
-- If 'tube' guitarists play with lots of distortion (like me), what do you think we are listening to when playing those recordings from our rigs? 
More tubes, in our rigs, do you think that it will amplify even more that distortion?
...Solid state? ...Preamplification and amplification.
___________
Tube cables?
More tubes, in our rigs, do you think that it will amplify even more that distortion?
...Solid state? ...Preamplification and amplification.
___________
Tube cables?
I find this argument similar to the Harman study on speakers. You know, the better it measures the more it's preferred. If only it were that simple, you could sell your SET. BTW when you hook an amp to a spseaker it has to do more than provide gain.
-- Greg, you totally lost me regarding Teresa. :b ...Is she a poet or a philosopher?
Merry Christmas! :b
Merry Christmas! :b
A guitar amplifier is all about sound PRODUCTION.
HiFi gear is all about RE-production.
If a guitar amp distorts, then that distortion is "part of the instrument" as intended by the artist.
If the stereo you play it through distorts, that is your equipment NOT playing the song as the artist intended, but changing it.
If you like Elvis, that's your business.
Likewise, if you like Lady Gaga.
BUT, if your stereo makes Elvis sound like Lady gaga, then it isn't hi-fi
HiFi gear is all about RE-production.
If a guitar amp distorts, then that distortion is "part of the instrument" as intended by the artist.
If the stereo you play it through distorts, that is your equipment NOT playing the song as the artist intended, but changing it.
If you like Elvis, that's your business.
Likewise, if you like Lady Gaga.
BUT, if your stereo makes Elvis sound like Lady gaga, then it isn't hi-fi
A wire with gain
I would disagree with your overall premise.....
The goal of your entire stereo system (if you want to call it "hi-fi") IS to provide gain.
The definition of "high-fidelity" is to attempt to accurately reproduce some "original".....
The goal of your entire chain of equipment, including the amp and the speakers, is to reproduce the original.
Since different people are sensitive to different errors, the measurements don't always correlate with an individual's experience,
but, yes, if you measured the right things, then the best measurements WOULD correlate with the best sound.
(unless, of course, your goal is NOT "high-fidelity" but instead you want to become part of the music-making process and modify it.....)
I would disagree with your overall premise.....
The goal of your entire stereo system (if you want to call it "hi-fi") IS to provide gain.
The definition of "high-fidelity" is to attempt to accurately reproduce some "original".....
The goal of your entire chain of equipment, including the amp and the speakers, is to reproduce the original.
Since different people are sensitive to different errors, the measurements don't always correlate with an individual's experience,
but, yes, if you measured the right things, then the best measurements WOULD correlate with the best sound.
(unless, of course, your goal is NOT "high-fidelity" but instead you want to become part of the music-making process and modify it.....)
OK, I'll be entirely (brutally) honest.
I happen to know a LOT about how tube amps SHOULD be designed, and what design parameters really matter. I can honestly say that I haven't looked in detail at all that many modern designs, but the majority of the ones I have examined were pathetic. With few exceptions, most of the lower cost ones I've seen are sloppily built, from underrated and badly chosen parts, and most of the ones I've actually heard succeeded in living down to expectations. Even most of the "technical chatter" and marketing hype lately makes it obvious that most modern tube designers have no idea of which criteria are important. For instance, the single most critical, and most expensive, component in a tube amplifier is the output transformer - yet very few vendors give any details about theirs. (In the old days, companies like McIntosh competed to design better output transformers, now most manufacturers don't even tell you what kind they're using.) Designing tube amplifiers isn't that complicated; it really isn't. If you want to learn something, look at a real design from a company who KNEW what they were doing - like McIntosh, or Eico, or Dynaco. You can find schematics for the classic designs if you Google, and you can buy them in excellent refurbished condition - for a rather high price. You can even buy modern kits and build your own "classic" Dynaco amps.
Go read a copy of "The RCA Receiving Tube Guide" - which is THE book about how to use tubes..... and wonder how so many modern designers either haven't read it, or don't seem able to follow simple design guidelines. *IF* I was going to spend money on a tube amp, I would spend it on a really nice clean rebuilt McIntosh, or maybe a Dyna Stereo 70, or an Eico power amp. If I wanted a new one, and I had the bucks, I might buy a Carver. (There are plenty of other reputable companies who I assume make decent ones as well.... but those are the ones I am personally familiar with.)
Here are the facts as I see (and hear) them.
Way back "in the beginning", all there was was tube equipment. As designs progressed from single-ended to push-pull, and from triodes to pentodes, the stated goal was to reduce distortion and coloration - and this goal was largely met. Listen to a vintage piece of McIntosh gear, or an Eico HF-20, or any one of a hundred other decent designs. They sound quite nice. Books like the RCA Tube Guide told you what levels to bias tubes for the longest life, and what voltages to use to center them in their most linear operating regions. Tubes are actually much simpler to design with than transistors. Towards the end of "the golden age of tubes", they actually were a well known quantity, and there were lots of very well-designed amplifiers that sounded very good.
Then, along came solid state, and everything changed. And, yes, the first generation of solid state amps sounded pretty bad (actually, only SOME of them did, but enough to leave a sour taste in the mouth).... then, as things usually do, people figured out the problems and overcame them. Modern solid state amps actually sound very very good.
Now, suddenly, (say it like Jack Nicholson in The Shining) - "tubes, they're baaaacccckkkk".
To put it bluntly, a lot of modern tube amp designers are either hacks or just plain stupid. They ignore basic and well known design wisdom, make foolish design choices, and often end up with unreliable and crappy sounding products. Of course, a lot of that could be because some of them seem to spend all their money on fancy metalwork, and little or none on good parts and design. And, no, exotic capacitors rescued from downed WW II MIGs and Russian radar installations isn't what they're missing. Oddly, the great classic designs didn't use exotic or expensive parts... they were just well designed and put the money where it counted. Now, in all fairness, some modern designers are deliberately under or over biasing their tubes so they distort a lot - to make sure they sound a lot different than solid state amps - so it isn't poor design per-se, but rather a marketing choice, but most of them won't admit it.
Incidentally, push-pull designs replaced single ended, and pentodes replaced triodes, and ultralinear replaced fixed-grid - all in the pursuit of lower distortion and better sound. Back in the 1950's, the only place you'd find a single ended triode amplifier was in a cheap portable phonograph. Now, for some odd reason, SET fans have decided that they prefer more distortion..... it's a shame that all the original design pioneers never realized that distortion is really good rather than something to be avoided whenever possible; just think of all the effort they could have saved
*IF* I were looking to buy a tube amp, I would buy a nice vintage McIntosh, preferably one that was refurbed by someone reputable, or an Eico (a power amp, NOT an integrated), or maybe a nice Dynaco (maybe I'd even consider a kit). If I was looking to buy a new tube amp, and I had plenty of money to spend, Bob Carver's amps are nicely made and well designed (but they are expensive). They sound like a good tube amp should sound. I'd stay far away from the Chinese imports with all the fancy aluminum metalwork (the ones that look like a huge square Rolex) - some few are good, but most are junk in fancy cabinets.
[The last "good" tube amps I had the occasion to hear for any length of time were a pair of Bob Carver's "Black Beauties" - the 300 watt monoblocks (I believe they have three pairs of either KT-100's or KT-120's each). They're very nicely made, and are actually reasonably flat, although they do have rather a soft high end for my tastes, and their damping factor is a bit low, which makes their bass also sound a bit soft with modern speakers. Overall, they sounded quite nice with some content, although I much prefer our (Emotiva's) solid state XPA-1 monoblocks - which are cleaner, have better damping, and cost about 1/7 the price.]
I happen to know a LOT about how tube amps SHOULD be designed, and what design parameters really matter. I can honestly say that I haven't looked in detail at all that many modern designs, but the majority of the ones I have examined were pathetic. With few exceptions, most of the lower cost ones I've seen are sloppily built, from underrated and badly chosen parts, and most of the ones I've actually heard succeeded in living down to expectations. Even most of the "technical chatter" and marketing hype lately makes it obvious that most modern tube designers have no idea of which criteria are important. For instance, the single most critical, and most expensive, component in a tube amplifier is the output transformer - yet very few vendors give any details about theirs. (In the old days, companies like McIntosh competed to design better output transformers, now most manufacturers don't even tell you what kind they're using.) Designing tube amplifiers isn't that complicated; it really isn't. If you want to learn something, look at a real design from a company who KNEW what they were doing - like McIntosh, or Eico, or Dynaco. You can find schematics for the classic designs if you Google, and you can buy them in excellent refurbished condition - for a rather high price. You can even buy modern kits and build your own "classic" Dynaco amps.
Go read a copy of "The RCA Receiving Tube Guide" - which is THE book about how to use tubes..... and wonder how so many modern designers either haven't read it, or don't seem able to follow simple design guidelines. *IF* I was going to spend money on a tube amp, I would spend it on a really nice clean rebuilt McIntosh, or maybe a Dyna Stereo 70, or an Eico power amp. If I wanted a new one, and I had the bucks, I might buy a Carver. (There are plenty of other reputable companies who I assume make decent ones as well.... but those are the ones I am personally familiar with.)
Here are the facts as I see (and hear) them.
Way back "in the beginning", all there was was tube equipment. As designs progressed from single-ended to push-pull, and from triodes to pentodes, the stated goal was to reduce distortion and coloration - and this goal was largely met. Listen to a vintage piece of McIntosh gear, or an Eico HF-20, or any one of a hundred other decent designs. They sound quite nice. Books like the RCA Tube Guide told you what levels to bias tubes for the longest life, and what voltages to use to center them in their most linear operating regions. Tubes are actually much simpler to design with than transistors. Towards the end of "the golden age of tubes", they actually were a well known quantity, and there were lots of very well-designed amplifiers that sounded very good.
Then, along came solid state, and everything changed. And, yes, the first generation of solid state amps sounded pretty bad (actually, only SOME of them did, but enough to leave a sour taste in the mouth).... then, as things usually do, people figured out the problems and overcame them. Modern solid state amps actually sound very very good.
Now, suddenly, (say it like Jack Nicholson in The Shining) - "tubes, they're baaaacccckkkk".
To put it bluntly, a lot of modern tube amp designers are either hacks or just plain stupid. They ignore basic and well known design wisdom, make foolish design choices, and often end up with unreliable and crappy sounding products. Of course, a lot of that could be because some of them seem to spend all their money on fancy metalwork, and little or none on good parts and design. And, no, exotic capacitors rescued from downed WW II MIGs and Russian radar installations isn't what they're missing. Oddly, the great classic designs didn't use exotic or expensive parts... they were just well designed and put the money where it counted. Now, in all fairness, some modern designers are deliberately under or over biasing their tubes so they distort a lot - to make sure they sound a lot different than solid state amps - so it isn't poor design per-se, but rather a marketing choice, but most of them won't admit it.
Incidentally, push-pull designs replaced single ended, and pentodes replaced triodes, and ultralinear replaced fixed-grid - all in the pursuit of lower distortion and better sound. Back in the 1950's, the only place you'd find a single ended triode amplifier was in a cheap portable phonograph. Now, for some odd reason, SET fans have decided that they prefer more distortion..... it's a shame that all the original design pioneers never realized that distortion is really good rather than something to be avoided whenever possible; just think of all the effort they could have saved
*IF* I were looking to buy a tube amp, I would buy a nice vintage McIntosh, preferably one that was refurbed by someone reputable, or an Eico (a power amp, NOT an integrated), or maybe a nice Dynaco (maybe I'd even consider a kit). If I was looking to buy a new tube amp, and I had plenty of money to spend, Bob Carver's amps are nicely made and well designed (but they are expensive). They sound like a good tube amp should sound. I'd stay far away from the Chinese imports with all the fancy aluminum metalwork (the ones that look like a huge square Rolex) - some few are good, but most are junk in fancy cabinets.
[The last "good" tube amps I had the occasion to hear for any length of time were a pair of Bob Carver's "Black Beauties" - the 300 watt monoblocks (I believe they have three pairs of either KT-100's or KT-120's each). They're very nicely made, and are actually reasonably flat, although they do have rather a soft high end for my tastes, and their damping factor is a bit low, which makes their bass also sound a bit soft with modern speakers. Overall, they sounded quite nice with some content, although I much prefer our (Emotiva's) solid state XPA-1 monoblocks - which are cleaner, have better damping, and cost about 1/7 the price.]
I would go you one better.
Find a dealer who has equipment you can LISTEN to.
Rather than try to understand the technical details, and figure out which are hype and which are real, the easiest non-technical solution is to go listen to it and see if you agree that it sounds good and, if so, then buy it. Just do your best to avoid being biased into EXPECTING it to sound good (or bad) by technical arguments - ESPECIALLY if you aren't technically knowledgeable enough to know if they're true or not.
Also, sample a lot of different products (it would be a shame to find out you like tubes, and then buy a $5k tube amp, only to find out later that you like a $500 tube amp just as well)
Find a dealer who has equipment you can LISTEN to.
Rather than try to understand the technical details, and figure out which are hype and which are real, the easiest non-technical solution is to go listen to it and see if you agree that it sounds good and, if so, then buy it. Just do your best to avoid being biased into EXPECTING it to sound good (or bad) by technical arguments - ESPECIALLY if you aren't technically knowledgeable enough to know if they're true or not.
Also, sample a lot of different products (it would be a shame to find out you like tubes, and then buy a $5k tube amp, only to find out later that you like a $500 tube amp just as well)
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