No problem Steve.
Maybe you’d expect me to respond to Ked’s comments on accepting criticism.
No probs tuning out of this one.
Maybe you’d expect me to respond to Ked’s comments on accepting criticism.
No probs tuning out of this one.
Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams
- Thread starter steve williams
- Start date
Congrats Steve on the subs, room damping changes. I know significant change is difficult and never felt the need for subs on my X-2's, but always wondered. I guess I can put that thought to bed.
This is a great read Steve! I only met Russ recently and I hope that I wasn't too harsh with him 
but we did enjoy a great dinner together and look forward to meeting up again next time I'm in the area. Sometimes change takes time and it requires the help of a good friend to discover the aha moments, in the end all's well that end's well! I feel privileged to be part of your journey and this wonderful forum that you created.
david
but we did enjoy a great dinner together and look forward to meeting up again next time I'm in the area. Sometimes change takes time and it requires the help of a good friend to discover the aha moments, in the end all's well that end's well! I feel privileged to be part of your journey and this wonderful forum that you created.david
Steve,
Anyway I suggest you do not forget of Marty experience - as far as I remember he needed a JLAudio CR1 crossover to fully integrate the subs. Although I would love to have a system without sub's in my system the F113 mk2 + CR1 also do a great job.
I have remained somewhat quiet since Steve’s original post on our visit largely because my head has been jumping around considering the various permutations and combination for my next system steps. Although I recently bought a Spectral DMC 30-SV and a DMA 300 RS, not to mention about $100k of MIT SHD cables and speaker wire, the Spectral sound has become a bit too analytic for me, leading to a desired shift to a more musical system.
Also, I have to remember that what started this quest was finding a way to remove my JL F113 subs to help reduce feedback to my turntable. I had just bought a new turntable, arm and cartridge, (Triangle Art Reference SE, Rockport Sirrius 6000 tone arm and the new ZYX Ultimate cartridge, but had not yet heard the combo because I was having trouble getting an air line to my tone arm’s air bearing from it’s somewhat industrial and noisy pump.
I have to admit that since I started writing this post last weekend, my next thoughts of the moment have changed at least 5, if not, 10 times, with no confidence that I have come to a conclusion at this point. I have never thought of myself as a shopaholic because I do not like shopping, I have to admit that I am when it comes to making an audio purchase choice. I have been home all day as the fourth snow storm in as many weeks has occurred. While I had many plans for things I would get done, I did nothing but read reviews, called stores and talked to Marty, in whom I have now stimulated his version of the same illness. In fact, I was not sure if I was looking for new speakers, electronics and/or cables
While I had not heard Steve’s system in its current room, I had heard it several times in a previous house. It was in the previous location that I first started my love affair with Lamm SET electronics. Fortunately, for me my speakers at the time could not be powered by any SET amp, nor could I afford the Lamm equipment, so they were not part of my thoughts for future system growth.
After Steve drove over two hours to pick my up at LAX and arriving at his home Friday night, Steve’s better half, Cathy, provided some great homemade soup and veggies, we went to Steve’s man cave a.k.a. his listening room. So it was with great excitement I sat down Friday night at about 2 am my time to listen to his new and improved system (with the addition of Master Built cables and cords and a full CMS rack system which combined cost more than my total system, not to mention total use of Center Stage footers).
Unfortunately, what I heard was not what I expected because it was somewhat sterile without any of the sizzle and romance I had remembered. I was concerned because the sound was similar to the Lamm sound I had just heard in another system, making me wonder if my memory was playing with me. However, there were elements of the cherished sound, but also a great sonic void lateral of each speaker, even on music I know well that goes way beyond my Vivid Giya’s. While I did not like the sound of the overdamping, it was impressive how the sound just stopped lateral of the speakers.
Part of me was relieved because Steve’s system easily costs 3 times mine and as I age I was not keen on spending the extra 2/3’s (about $500k) to get the Lamm sound I loved, plus it meant I would have to unload about $100k of MIT cable at fire sale prices to replace with Master Built for at least as much and then another $50-100k for CMS racks.
Saturday morning we set off to San Diego without so much as a peep from Steve, despite bumper to bumper traffic most of the way. We went to Alma Music, one of, if not the leading audio store in San Diego. One of the owners, Alex, could not have been more accommodating. We listened to a pair of Wilson Alexia series 2’s with D’Agostino Momentum 400 mono blocks and an ARC Ref 10 preamp. The sound was wonderful despite what looked like a very unusual setup with the speakers at least 15, if not 20 feet apart and yet sitting no more than 12-15 feet back. I must admit that caused me to renew my like for the Alexia because I understand that the Series 1 sounds almost the same and is $30k less. At just over $100,000 for the preamp/amp, this wonderful system seemed out of my range if I exclude what I will have to spend on Master Built cables, even after I sell my MIT cables and wire.
The Wilsons further peaked my interest as the weekend progressed and I heard Steve’s system in more detail (Witches Brew on tape and vinyl, Leonard Cohen and Depeche Mode on Steve’s system and on Phillip O’Hanlon’s Vivid Spirits and G1 series 2, powered by a huge Luxman mono block that unfortunately could not transmit the detail of Steve’s Lamm’s. But as Steve mentioned, it was opening his curtains about 18 inches on each side wall in his room that not only made a huge improvement, but probably produced the best sound I have ever heard with the possible exception of John Iverson’s Force Field. Add Steve’s acoustition Bonnie Schnitta to the list and budget.
I was quickly reminded that Steve’s Lamm reference amps, preamp and phono cost $230,000, not counting cabling and racks, way beyond my $50K budget and could not power Alexia’s due to an impedance drop. This however opened up another option, keep my Vivids and use Lamm Hybrid mono blocks and a hybrid preamplifier for a mere $56,000 infusion of cash, not counting the Master Built’s and rack’s. Another option would be to mix tubes with solid state and use a fully tube preamp that could drive the Spectral 300 RS, or maybe a tube amp that could be driven by the Spectral DMC 30SV, very hard scenarios to achieve in a store since they are not supposed to mix Spectral preamps and amps with non-Spectral products.
By this time I was not only confused, but becoming concerned that I had already exceeded my budget of trying to not spend much more than $50k on this upgrade, when I was already $56-105K over budget before cables and racks, because my Spectral electronics would probably sound even more analytic with either Alexia’s or G1 series 2.
Thankfully, we took Sunday morning off from audio and went to a wonderful brunch with Cathy. For a few moments the smoke stopped coming out of my ears. But then we went to Phillip O’Hanlon’s house to hear the Vivid Spirits AND Giya 1 series 2, an A-B comparison that few have had the opportunity to hear because they are rarely in the same location at the same time.
While I was hoping that the Spirit would be my last speaker, it was the least good sounding, at least when powered by Luxman mono blocks, of the then there contenders. Phillip’s room is so big 30’ x 40’ and 24’ tall, that my entire house could almost fit inside of it. Ironically despite it’s enormity, the Spirits had more bass than the room and all of the associated open air spaces could not handle them, and certainly more than my room could handle.
Monday morning we went back to Phillip’s to hear the G1’s after they had settled in. To my surprise, I much preferred the G1’s to the Spirits, despite being 4 1/2 inches taller than the already tall Spirits. Now a new issue, the height of the speakers entered into the mix, not to mention the likelihood that while the Spectral electronics would work, they probably would sound even more analytic with the Vivids and not have sufficient power.
To add to the confusion, Phillip introduced Gryphon electronics and speakers into the equation, but luckily did not have any pieces at his home so I did to have to contemplate another set of variables. He did have a 100 page beautifully done brochure that kept me busy on the plane as I flew cross country.
By the time I got home I needed an audio break to let my head cool down and make some serious decisions about how much money I wanted to spend and in what way so that I would not regret my moves. In the more than week since I got home, my confusion has become worse as more variable have entered the equation and I still do not have an air line to my Rockport arm.
The first thing I did was play with my speaker and subwoofer position to see if I could make any gains on that front and hopefully get back into my $50k upgrade, To my surprise, I improved the sound by moving the Vivids’ about 4 inches in on each side which helped with the midrange and then put the JL’s behind the Vivids and set back more so that the woofs were firing into the back of the Giya’s. Surprisingly this helped tremendously and probably would have been sufficient for the time being had I not heard Steve’s system, the Alexia’s with D’Agostino Momentum 400’s and the Giya 1’s. But then I could not test the acoustic feedback from the JL’s to the turntable because of the lack of an air line.
Now I was not sure what to do because of the likelihood of spending at least $100k on my upgrade, something I could do, but would be smarter to put into my retirement. And then I remembered that all of this was theoretical since I had never heard the combinations I was considering because by this time, this was not really an upgrade, but rather a wholesale system change of electronics, speakers and cables, not to mention racks.
This post is already too long and becoming more confusing with every word. This week I have already explored a pair of Kronzilla DXL mono blocks, Ayon Orthos XS mono blocks, Alexia 1’s and 2’s and plan to go hear Lamm hybrids this weekend.
In about a week I hope that I will have made some decisions and purchases so that my life can return to normal so that I can listen to some music and hopefully finally hear my new turntable, arm and cartridge which hopefully will solve my feedback problem.
A week later I am only added to my confusion by now adding Von Schweikert VR 55's to the mix, an evaluation of VAC tube amps and Master Built Ultra Speaker Cable (ordered).
Best of all about the visit was seeing Steve, Cathy and Meghan.
Also, I have to remember that what started this quest was finding a way to remove my JL F113 subs to help reduce feedback to my turntable. I had just bought a new turntable, arm and cartridge, (Triangle Art Reference SE, Rockport Sirrius 6000 tone arm and the new ZYX Ultimate cartridge, but had not yet heard the combo because I was having trouble getting an air line to my tone arm’s air bearing from it’s somewhat industrial and noisy pump.
I have to admit that since I started writing this post last weekend, my next thoughts of the moment have changed at least 5, if not, 10 times, with no confidence that I have come to a conclusion at this point. I have never thought of myself as a shopaholic because I do not like shopping, I have to admit that I am when it comes to making an audio purchase choice. I have been home all day as the fourth snow storm in as many weeks has occurred. While I had many plans for things I would get done, I did nothing but read reviews, called stores and talked to Marty, in whom I have now stimulated his version of the same illness. In fact, I was not sure if I was looking for new speakers, electronics and/or cables
While I had not heard Steve’s system in its current room, I had heard it several times in a previous house. It was in the previous location that I first started my love affair with Lamm SET electronics. Fortunately, for me my speakers at the time could not be powered by any SET amp, nor could I afford the Lamm equipment, so they were not part of my thoughts for future system growth.
After Steve drove over two hours to pick my up at LAX and arriving at his home Friday night, Steve’s better half, Cathy, provided some great homemade soup and veggies, we went to Steve’s man cave a.k.a. his listening room. So it was with great excitement I sat down Friday night at about 2 am my time to listen to his new and improved system (with the addition of Master Built cables and cords and a full CMS rack system which combined cost more than my total system, not to mention total use of Center Stage footers).
Unfortunately, what I heard was not what I expected because it was somewhat sterile without any of the sizzle and romance I had remembered. I was concerned because the sound was similar to the Lamm sound I had just heard in another system, making me wonder if my memory was playing with me. However, there were elements of the cherished sound, but also a great sonic void lateral of each speaker, even on music I know well that goes way beyond my Vivid Giya’s. While I did not like the sound of the overdamping, it was impressive how the sound just stopped lateral of the speakers.
Part of me was relieved because Steve’s system easily costs 3 times mine and as I age I was not keen on spending the extra 2/3’s (about $500k) to get the Lamm sound I loved, plus it meant I would have to unload about $100k of MIT cable at fire sale prices to replace with Master Built for at least as much and then another $50-100k for CMS racks.
Saturday morning we set off to San Diego without so much as a peep from Steve, despite bumper to bumper traffic most of the way. We went to Alma Music, one of, if not the leading audio store in San Diego. One of the owners, Alex, could not have been more accommodating. We listened to a pair of Wilson Alexia series 2’s with D’Agostino Momentum 400 mono blocks and an ARC Ref 10 preamp. The sound was wonderful despite what looked like a very unusual setup with the speakers at least 15, if not 20 feet apart and yet sitting no more than 12-15 feet back. I must admit that caused me to renew my like for the Alexia because I understand that the Series 1 sounds almost the same and is $30k less. At just over $100,000 for the preamp/amp, this wonderful system seemed out of my range if I exclude what I will have to spend on Master Built cables, even after I sell my MIT cables and wire.
The Wilsons further peaked my interest as the weekend progressed and I heard Steve’s system in more detail (Witches Brew on tape and vinyl, Leonard Cohen and Depeche Mode on Steve’s system and on Phillip O’Hanlon’s Vivid Spirits and G1 series 2, powered by a huge Luxman mono block that unfortunately could not transmit the detail of Steve’s Lamm’s. But as Steve mentioned, it was opening his curtains about 18 inches on each side wall in his room that not only made a huge improvement, but probably produced the best sound I have ever heard with the possible exception of John Iverson’s Force Field. Add Steve’s acoustition Bonnie Schnitta to the list and budget.
I was quickly reminded that Steve’s Lamm reference amps, preamp and phono cost $230,000, not counting cabling and racks, way beyond my $50K budget and could not power Alexia’s due to an impedance drop. This however opened up another option, keep my Vivids and use Lamm Hybrid mono blocks and a hybrid preamplifier for a mere $56,000 infusion of cash, not counting the Master Built’s and rack’s. Another option would be to mix tubes with solid state and use a fully tube preamp that could drive the Spectral 300 RS, or maybe a tube amp that could be driven by the Spectral DMC 30SV, very hard scenarios to achieve in a store since they are not supposed to mix Spectral preamps and amps with non-Spectral products.
By this time I was not only confused, but becoming concerned that I had already exceeded my budget of trying to not spend much more than $50k on this upgrade, when I was already $56-105K over budget before cables and racks, because my Spectral electronics would probably sound even more analytic with either Alexia’s or G1 series 2.
Thankfully, we took Sunday morning off from audio and went to a wonderful brunch with Cathy. For a few moments the smoke stopped coming out of my ears. But then we went to Phillip O’Hanlon’s house to hear the Vivid Spirits AND Giya 1 series 2, an A-B comparison that few have had the opportunity to hear because they are rarely in the same location at the same time.
While I was hoping that the Spirit would be my last speaker, it was the least good sounding, at least when powered by Luxman mono blocks, of the then there contenders. Phillip’s room is so big 30’ x 40’ and 24’ tall, that my entire house could almost fit inside of it. Ironically despite it’s enormity, the Spirits had more bass than the room and all of the associated open air spaces could not handle them, and certainly more than my room could handle.
Monday morning we went back to Phillip’s to hear the G1’s after they had settled in. To my surprise, I much preferred the G1’s to the Spirits, despite being 4 1/2 inches taller than the already tall Spirits. Now a new issue, the height of the speakers entered into the mix, not to mention the likelihood that while the Spectral electronics would work, they probably would sound even more analytic with the Vivids and not have sufficient power.
To add to the confusion, Phillip introduced Gryphon electronics and speakers into the equation, but luckily did not have any pieces at his home so I did to have to contemplate another set of variables. He did have a 100 page beautifully done brochure that kept me busy on the plane as I flew cross country.
By the time I got home I needed an audio break to let my head cool down and make some serious decisions about how much money I wanted to spend and in what way so that I would not regret my moves. In the more than week since I got home, my confusion has become worse as more variable have entered the equation and I still do not have an air line to my Rockport arm.
The first thing I did was play with my speaker and subwoofer position to see if I could make any gains on that front and hopefully get back into my $50k upgrade, To my surprise, I improved the sound by moving the Vivids’ about 4 inches in on each side which helped with the midrange and then put the JL’s behind the Vivids and set back more so that the woofs were firing into the back of the Giya’s. Surprisingly this helped tremendously and probably would have been sufficient for the time being had I not heard Steve’s system, the Alexia’s with D’Agostino Momentum 400’s and the Giya 1’s. But then I could not test the acoustic feedback from the JL’s to the turntable because of the lack of an air line.
Now I was not sure what to do because of the likelihood of spending at least $100k on my upgrade, something I could do, but would be smarter to put into my retirement. And then I remembered that all of this was theoretical since I had never heard the combinations I was considering because by this time, this was not really an upgrade, but rather a wholesale system change of electronics, speakers and cables, not to mention racks.
This post is already too long and becoming more confusing with every word. This week I have already explored a pair of Kronzilla DXL mono blocks, Ayon Orthos XS mono blocks, Alexia 1’s and 2’s and plan to go hear Lamm hybrids this weekend.
In about a week I hope that I will have made some decisions and purchases so that my life can return to normal so that I can listen to some music and hopefully finally hear my new turntable, arm and cartridge which hopefully will solve my feedback problem.
A week later I am only added to my confusion by now adding Von Schweikert VR 55's to the mix, an evaluation of VAC tube amps and Master Built Ultra Speaker Cable (ordered).
Best of all about the visit was seeing Steve, Cathy and Meghan.
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Have you considered something like a Trinnov for your setup? The amethyst would be your best bet cos of its phono input.
The G1's major difference over the g3's is the scale of sound .. more grandeur , majesty and a more all enveloping sound.
You wont need your subs if you get a pair.
The G1's major difference over the g3's is the scale of sound .. more grandeur , majesty and a more all enveloping sound.
You wont need your subs if you get a pair.
Russ, you don’t need new speakers but your front end makes no sense. Lamm phono and ARC dac to Spectral is odd.
You just need to move to different preamp/amp. Spectral doesn’t sound good on Wilson either.
You just need to move to different preamp/amp. Spectral doesn’t sound good on Wilson either.
Ya... What do Spectrals sound good with? I can not say I care for them.
But really, Russ, please dont go crazy and do anything rash. If there is something I am very certain about, it is that all or the sound you seek doesnt require the price tags you assume. It is just easy to call it good and go with the most expensive things because the work to weed out non-qualifiers is complicated. Luckily this forum had a great many friendly contributors - among everyine here a surprising amount of gear had been heard.
I suggest you make a new thread, something like "help me get to my goals". List your stuff now, and tell us what you want to get to sonically.
I just came back from a 5 day Orange county vacation with my daughter in the lovely home of Steve and Cathy and I must say that my impression of this part of Southern California is gloriously sublime. In between, I listened to Steve's marvelous system for 3 different sessions, and Steve played me several tracks of CDs made specially by Philip O' Hanlon and a lot of these blew my away, with music I have never heard before but got me glued and asking for more. Steve's system as a whole struck me a very cohesive, very dynamic despite the 35 watts rating of the Lamm Monoblocks, and totally, as in totally transparent with incredible pinpoint imaging as well as SOLID instrumentation and vocalization by performers. Steve played for me a modern techno music cut which punched its way into my guts like I've never heard before. He also played a couple of Leonard Cohen songs that knocked my socks off, and the rocket experience for me was when Steve played a song by Anete Askvig which was absolutely the kind of music I listen to and that made my night. The next day Steve would play a tape of the RCA Witches Brew and that was impressive specially when Side 2 came. Dynamics, clarity, resolution and fidelity were among the best I have ever heard in a system anywhere. I then requested Steve to play 2 of my all-time favorite vinyl albums, Cantate Domino and a Nimbus remastered Dave Grusin Mountain Dance. The O Holy Night cut of Cantate flied sky high as the members of the choral group was literally pasted at the middle of the soundstage with incredible layering and tonal richness. My favorite cuts of Mountain Dance did not disappoint either, with rock solid images and staggering bass and drum whacks that would have dried my wet socks. Piano and keyboard tones were outstanding too. Steve narrated to me how the evolution of his listening room came about, with details of how it was built and professionally treated with acoustical drapes and floor 'sheets'. The result is a room that is fooling the speakers that it is bigger than what it actually is, as Steve pointed out, and that was what it was. To hear is to believe, and listening to Steve's system is the proof that hard work and dedication, together with passion, converts itself to gratification, in the realm of reproduced music. When the lights are out, the music plays, and everything is magical in Steve's system. Thank you very much Steve, for inviting me over to your home to experience all these, and your warm and tremendous hospitality (as well as Cathy's) for showing me and my daughter around Orange County. It is truly a memorable experience and will be hard to forget.
The Lamm phono and ARC CD 9 are to add some tube influence. I think that the necessary MIT cables are also a problem. I am not sure that I agree with you about Spectral and Wilson, although I prefer a warmer sound at this point.
Phil, having just heard many of the same cuts on Steve's system, I totally agree with your assessment. The Leonard Cohen cuts truly impressed me.
FWIW I believe we have gotten Russ on the Master Built Ultra route which for my ears are the most amazing cables I have ever heard. I heard the KURO at Gian's last year when in Italy and they were very good indeed. I just truly prefer the MB Ultra as I have never heard such micro and macro details with any other cable as i do with my Ultra loom
Sorry Steve. I didn’t read the post thoroughly.
I deleted my post.
Kind regards,
Tang
My reference point, sitting in a 20x30 (if that) room with Billy Cobham on full kit for a couple hours.
Same room Chester Thompson full kit for a couple hours.
Standing on the drum riser 2 feet behind Mike Portnoy full kit as he rocked Erotomania
I want that, its hard to do.
Steve did you ever take the subs out of the room? I noticed they were still in there in the pics.
Steve
I may be wrong but when we were at Gian's last year, he was using Kuro power cords only. He was using MIT MA-X rev 3 between his tape deck and CH preamp, and CH interconnects and speaker cables for everything else. Gianluigi will hopefully confirm.
Marty
Hey Mike, I’m disappointed in you .
No Neil Peart (NP) in front of you?
I’d want vintage Moving Pictures/Exit...Stage Left NP 1981 Tama Superstar Rosewood kit, Signals NP 1982 Red Artstar kit, Hold Your Fire NP 1987 White Ludwig kit.
Any will do.
No Neil Peart (NP) in front of you?
I’d want vintage Moving Pictures/Exit...Stage Left NP 1981 Tama Superstar Rosewood kit, Signals NP 1982 Red Artstar kit, Hold Your Fire NP 1987 White Ludwig kit.
Any will do.
Hi Marty
When you and Steve visited me I had
Kuro copper from Bergmann to phono
Mit MA X Rev 2 between phono and pre and CH between pre and amp and CH speaker cable
From tape to pre I have a cable very cheap of 300 euro long 4 mt
Ciao
Gianluigi
When you and Steve visited me I had
Kuro copper from Bergmann to phono
Mit MA X Rev 2 between phono and pre and CH between pre and amp and CH speaker cable
From tape to pre I have a cable very cheap of 300 euro long 4 mt
Ciao
Gianluigi
At the time he didn't live in Los Angeles, or it would have happened.
You can also add Chad Wackerman to that list.
NP Time Machine Drum Kit the most stunning ever of all!
He did however show up at Jazz clubs unannounced and play and i never got lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time.
Trust me it was not for lack of trying!
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