Yes, for me the experience trumps other things but I never feel that I’m leaving anything on the table either.
david
Does anybody hear difference with a coffee table in place?
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david
Years ago when Jim Smith came to voice my system, he spent a couple of hours the night before listening and assessing the issues. Before he left for the night he asked me to do two things by morning before he started his work. One was to damp the vibration of the piano in the room. The other was to raise the height of the sofa cushions by a few inches. I got two furniture blankets for the piano, and ripped a piece of plywood to insert under the cushions of my listening sofa. He then started the serious work of listening and adjusting.
You are right that everything matters. And Jim, with his trained ears, certainly heard more of the issues that I did.
I do appreciate David's and Steve's point though. If the OP does not hear a difference in his room and system, he should do as he pleases. Actually, to your point, he should do as he pleases, regardless. What each of us chooses to do is a different matter depending on our objectives. It seems the OP wants opinions about his coffee table and perhaps, though not asking, may appreciate other suggestions too. It's a good subject to discuss.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
For what it's worth, I've found that equipment between the speakers makes very little sonic difference if any unless your rack(s) are of substantial height. This is most likely because the rack is a significant distance away from the sweet spot versus a coffee table which is in close proximity to the sweet spot (early reflections and all that goes with it).
It also depends on how you listen. My listening usually involves friends and family enjoying great music and each others company. Design ascetics (Nelson benches, Eames chairs, etc) are important conciderations while building a great listening space. When I see rooms totally dominated by ugly sound proofing, the room doesn't look inviting to me.
"but I never feel that I’m leaving anything on the table either"
Now you bring up a different issue. So you notice a difference if you put something on the coffee table, just not the coffee table itself. Yes I'm joking.
Not looking to be petulant and sorry if you take it that way, but, yes you are leaving "sonically" something on the table if you ignore the sonic factors of having a reflective surface between your transducers and your listening position. It is a matter of whether that matters to you.
Everyone has opinions on this and by no means do I want to tell people theirs is wrong. Everything in life is a set of compromises and it is what you are willing to live with. Again, not sure why the OP would ask in a high end thread if it didn't make a difference. The logic doesn't compute with me. It must matter otherwise why ask. Whether or not it matters enough to someone to remove it is another issue. BUT it does matter.
As you noticed when you had Jim Smith over "everything matters". It is a matter of what you want and how you want it. My two points are that #1 it does matter sonically and #2 we discuss/debate/heated debate/argue over every last issue about our systems and then are willing to mitigate our super expensive systems by voluntarily doing stuff that we know is detrimental to the sound.
I truly get that and like I said to each his own and I think David hit the nail on the head by his statement which I inferred to mean (which I guess I inferred wrong by a later post of his when he said he didn't leave anything on the table) there is a difference between the "listening experience" and my point of getting the optimum your system is capable of. Both perspectives have compromises, one in getting the most out of your system and the other in the starkness and lack of creature comforts.
Gospel? No What's Best? No. Just my room and my experience :
This is my room and this is my coffee table.
DSCN5303 by jdza, on Flickr
On a Saturday evening during a bout of Audiophilitis I decided the coffee table was bad. I removed it. The sound became distinctly odd. I dragged out my measuring rig. Freq response stayed the same but the RT 60 did not. Overall value stayed 0.44s but in the low mids a segment shot up to more than 30% above the rest of the spectrum. Table back and it normalised. That (rather large) table moved in and out 14 times over that weekend. It stays where it is. The books must be there and the weekly flowers are sometimes much admired for their sound quality and some weeks not so good.
My wife recently removed the rug under the table. Again mayhem to the sound.
This is my room and this is my coffee table.
DSCN5303 by jdza, on FlickrOn a Saturday evening during a bout of Audiophilitis I decided the coffee table was bad. I removed it. The sound became distinctly odd. I dragged out my measuring rig. Freq response stayed the same but the RT 60 did not. Overall value stayed 0.44s but in the low mids a segment shot up to more than 30% above the rest of the spectrum. Table back and it normalised. That (rather large) table moved in and out 14 times over that weekend. It stays where it is. The books must be there and the weekly flowers are sometimes much admired for their sound quality and some weeks not so good.
My wife recently removed the rug under the table. Again mayhem to the sound.
? http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/08/measurements-room-acoustic-absorption.html
? http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/05/updated-room-measurements-musings-on.html
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From another source (not Dr. Floyd Toole):
"Another common mistake is having a low table directly in front of the seating, between the listening position and the front speakers. It’s a great place for the chips, dip, and feet, but bad for sound. Direct sound from your speakers mixes with the reflected (delayed slightly) sound off the table, reducing focus and clarity."
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There is a difference between a professional music listening room and a more casual music listening space. The Canadian OP's room fits best the description of the later. ...My own main music listening room the same; I cannot afford to have a dedicated professionally acoustically tuned music listening room in my barn (I calculated that it would cost me approximately $750,000 for the type of job I want...the best).
I too use a coffee table in my music space; I put my books/mags (Chatelaine, National Geographic, Paris Match, RollingStone, Hi>Fi+, The Art of the Deal, ...) on it, my remote control, my CD/SACDs, my USB sticks, my Android phone, my coffee, my glass of wine (cognac), my laptop, my chess board and my Rubik's Cube.
? http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/05/updated-room-measurements-musings-on.html
___
From another source (not Dr. Floyd Toole):
"Another common mistake is having a low table directly in front of the seating, between the listening position and the front speakers. It’s a great place for the chips, dip, and feet, but bad for sound. Direct sound from your speakers mixes with the reflected (delayed slightly) sound off the table, reducing focus and clarity."
_____
There is a difference between a professional music listening room and a more casual music listening space. The Canadian OP's room fits best the description of the later. ...My own main music listening room the same; I cannot afford to have a dedicated professionally acoustically tuned music listening room in my barn (I calculated that it would cost me approximately $750,000 for the type of job I want...the best).
I too use a coffee table in my music space; I put my books/mags (Chatelaine, National Geographic, Paris Match, RollingStone, Hi>Fi+, The Art of the Deal, ...) on it, my remote control, my CD/SACDs, my USB sticks, my Android phone, my coffee, my glass of wine (cognac), my laptop, my chess board and my Rubik's Cube.
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
When my room was designed, my acoustician said that the shelves I have on the side filled with CD's will act as a diffuser and I should move them around until the number on each shelf results in the best sound
Also when I had the shelves constructed she stipulated that the back wall of the shelves not touch the inside of the back wall. she wanted 1/4" difference as this too would serve as a diffuser
Bob,
It would be nice if you properly identified the source of your comment, particularly if you refer the name of F. Toole in the same sentence.
"If your loudspeakers are well behaved off axis, absorption of the first lateral reflection is optional. According to the research by Dr. Floyd Toole, In double blind tests most people find the additional spaciousness caused by not absorbing the early reflections to be pleasant. Early reflections help to fill the huge hole in the frequency response which improves the center phantom image in the sweet spot for two-channel listening. The idea for killing first lateral reflections originated in pro audio, where mixers found that being in a strong direct sound field made their job easier. A recent JAES paper confirms this, but goes on to say that mastering engineers prefer to listen in more reflective spaces. This of course is good, because that is where consumers listen.
Now, if you want to “kill first reflections” you will need at least 3 inches of fiberglass or solid (not sculptured) foam. Anything thinner just turns the treble down, degrading sound quality."
Now, if you want to “kill first reflections” you will need at least 3 inches of fiberglass or solid (not sculptured) foam. Anything thinner just turns the treble down, degrading sound quality."
The photo of your room should bring some common sense to to this debate. There are so many types of speakers, rooms and preferences that we can not have general rules.
As a side note, I will say that many people have floor materials or carpets that are far more offensive from the acoustic point of view than a wood coffee table ...
Interesting thread. When I had my speakers along the long wall of my room and had a different coffee table, it made a big difference. In my current orientation and a wooden coffee table, I'm not sure that it does. I've moved it out a few times when other audiophiles (e.g. Peter A) was over and I *think* the difference was negligible. I guess I should try moving it again, if only to truly know (I love my coffee table for casual listening and wouldn't banish it outright).
Slightly off-topic:
What did NOT make an audible difference is treating the window behind my speakers. I've tried drapes, wooden blinds (a suggestion by ddk) and did a/b tests with my audiophile friend with the best hearing I know and who is extremely fussy when it comes to high frequencies. He could not hear a difference and neither could I.
However, I've always suspected I was losing a lot of midbass through the glass and on Friday I tried placing a door on it's side to try and retain some midbass and gain some body. It worked. Significant difference; I almost have too much midbass. I'm still assessing it... obviously it's a bit of a band-aid but I have to say I'm enjoying the results so far.
Slightly off-topic:
What did NOT make an audible difference is treating the window behind my speakers. I've tried drapes, wooden blinds (a suggestion by ddk) and did a/b tests with my audiophile friend with the best hearing I know and who is extremely fussy when it comes to high frequencies. He could not hear a difference and neither could I.
However, I've always suspected I was losing a lot of midbass through the glass and on Friday I tried placing a door on it's side to try and retain some midbass and gain some body. It worked. Significant difference; I almost have too much midbass. I'm still assessing it... obviously it's a bit of a band-aid but I have to say I'm enjoying the results so far.
I usually include links with all my quotes. The reason why I didn't this time is because it's from an article on home theater setup. But the rule still generally applies to a strictly 2-channel stereo music listening room, with only two loudspeakers.
It's from Audioholics and written by Paul Scarpelli
• COMMON MISTAKES WHEN SETTING UP A HOME THEATER SYSTEM
And that latest quote from my latest post also came from that same article (link).
I agree with you, so I'm please to oblige.
A simple test is to drape a towel over the table top. If there is no difference, don't worry about it. If it's an improvement, keep the towel nearby for "serious" listening sessions or experiment with removing the table.
Back when I needed to have the table in the room due to WAF considerations - I could hear it, but the effect was relatively minor. Draping a towel over it to remove first reflections worked well enough - at least for me.
Back when I needed to have the table in the room due to WAF considerations - I could hear it, but the effect was relatively minor. Draping a towel over it to remove first reflections worked well enough - at least for me.
Thanks Bob. Can I ask you if you endorse the positions of these people, known for their anti-audiophile systematic attitude?
A relatively long time ago I was a forum member @ Audioholics. And years before I joined I was reading many of the articles.
First, the overall attitude of the forums @ the time that I was a member was simply too narrow for my own taste. I contributed the best I could; I am an extremely patient person, but after constant aggressive comments by some of their regular members, it was time to explore other avenues.
They have some very good articles on their website; that I can use.
I know exactly what you mean; and no, I don't subscribe to narrow views, or as you just said it...to anti-audiophile systematic attitude. I'm very patient, but when it's time to go it's time to go.
I like open minds, peaceful people, relaxing atmosphere, intelligent people, ...all that cool jazz. ...Which is what I'm listening to right now (Jazz music), on the r.a.d.i.o., sitting outside on the veranda with a view on the whales of the Pacific Ocean.
