Does Beethoven need to be "cancelled"?

[PeterA]

Thanks Bonzo. I did not know that about Blackmore. He's one of my favorite rock guitarists. Here is one:

DP meets Beethoven.

One never knows where these kinds of threads will boldly go. Jon Lord at the bench mid way through. Awesome. Fathers whose daughters were going to these concerts might have wanted them cancelled, LOL.

 

[tima]

Lot's of rock keyboard players have classical music training. Here's Mark Stein:

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I don't know what the situation is in the US, but in the UK classical music is slipping rapidly from being part of the mainstream education system, to the point where only those in private education (less than 10% of the total) are even exposed to it.

It is even vanishing from the exam system. My daughter plays the harp. Some years ago when she was chosing her GCSEs, the certificate taken in England, Wales and Northern Ireland at 16, as opposed to A Levels which are at 18-19 for university entrance (Scotland has its own system). I had assumed music would be one of the 10 or so subjects she chose to take at GCSE level. But it wasn't on her list.

Rather annoyed at this (my bachelors' degree is in music and the house was filled with music when she was growing up) I had words with her about it. She then showed me the syllabus, which was so dumbed down (in comparison to the exams I sat back in the 1970s) as to be utterly pointless. 'Relevance' dominated, mediocre pop music was the main focus of study, the classical canon of Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert minimised to the point of invisibility. No ear tests, no counterpoint and harmony, no real attempt at understanding music's historical evolution, instrumental and vocal pieces of the most utterly banal quality. On looking at I readily agreed with her to drop Music as a formal subject.

I fear we are reaching a point of no return, where classical audiences will be self-reinforcing in their exclusivity, in turn further alienating this music from the masses. The sad thing is that any serious music - be it classical, jazz, jazz rock, electronic - relies on the same discipline and knowledge acquired through studying classical music not just in the development of performers, but in the development of critical listeners and enthusiastic audiences. Dumbing down for 'relevance' is short-sighted in the extreme.

Seeing my little cousins attending a music school 20 years after I graduated from a music school myself, I must say I know exactly what you mean. The educational emphasis has shifted to a slightly new paradigm. On the bright side, the teachers/academics started to address students' needs to a much higher degree.

Playing an instrument has been shown to have significant cognitive benefits. Creative thinking, social and emotional intelligence, coordination, memorisation and auditory processing are all thought to improve in school-age children who learn music. There is no doubt that music education is beneficial on many levels. But, when it comes to the type of music to teach, things get less agreeable.

Forcing classical music on young kids and teenagers, especially when they feel like they want to connect with contemporary music, is not an ideal solution. Being forced to engage with classical music since the early childhood years, I developed a strong reluctance towards classical music, moving from piano to classical and acoustic guitars at the age of 15. I only learned how to appreciate classical music in my late 20s. But as Frank would say, I did it my way.

I assume what we need the most is the right balance between forcing classical music upon the young students and downplaying its importance at the same time.

 

[tima]

On the bright side, the teachers/academics started to address students' needs to a much higher degree.

At what age are students equipped to best know their 'needs'?

she then showed me the syllabus, which was so dumbed down (in comparison to the exams I sat back in the 1970s) as to be utterly pointless. 'Relevance' dominated, mediocre pop music was the main focus of study, the classical canon of Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, Schubert minimised to the point of invisibility. No ear tests, no counterpoint and harmony, no real attempt at understanding music's historical evolution, instrumental and vocal pieces of the most utterly banal quality. On looking at I readily agreed with her to drop Music as a formal subject.

Who is responsible for the emphasis on relevance? Who, as you say, is dumbing down the syllabus and curriculum? Could it be "educators" who are a product of their own system? Whose answer to perennially dropping reading and math scores is to change the scale and lower standards so it doesn't reflect on their teaching? Who is assessed on their ability to inculcate knowledge rather than their ability to get a child delivered to the next level? Increasingly poor education is like a dysfunctional recessive gene passed from one generation of educators to another.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

I must say I enjoyed reading the depth of your analysis. I am also sad because there is no clear cut answer to the questions you raised.

I believe that the foundations should be embedded in classical music no matter the age. I also think that if a student expresses different musical inclinations at any point of his education, he should receive some form of guidance on how to develop talent in this direction as well.

 

[the sound of Tao]

At what age are students equipped to best know their 'needs'?
Who is responsible for the emphasis on relevance? Who, as you say, is dumbing down the syllabus and curriculum? Could it be "educators" who are a product of their own system? Whose answer to perennially dropping reading and math scores is to change the scale and lower standards so it doesn't reflect on their teaching? Who is assessed on their ability to inculcate knowledge rather than their ability to get a child delivered to the next level? Increasingly poor education is like a dysfunctional recessive gene passed from one generation of educators to another.

Tim is this really the state of education over where you are. Sounds horrendous. Is it the teachers over there that are to blame do you think? What else could be causing it?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe Beethoven won't be cancelled. We'll just wait a couple of generations where he and other classical greats will be only appreciated by such a tiny strata of society, and able to be played by an even tinier, that he'll fade from view.

Since that's the strata at risk of being cancelled itself, I'd say "job well done".

 

[microstrip]

Fortunately we also have great news on classical music relevance. Germany is still a strong country with strong musical interest - more than 15% of the population are involved in performing some kind of classical music, with plenty of youth participation, and China is becoming a classical music giant - see https://www.gramophone.co.uk/featur...ssical-music-an-extraordinary-story-of-growth.

 

[PeterA]

At what age are students equipped to best know their 'needs'?

Who is responsible for the emphasis on relevance? Who, as you say, is dumbing down the syllabus and curriculum? Could it be "educators" who are a product of their own system? Whose answer to perennially dropping reading and math scores is to change the scale and lower standards so it doesn't reflect on their teaching? Who is assessed on their ability to inculcate knowledge rather than their ability to get a child delivered to the next level? Increasingly poor education is like a dysfunctional recessive gene passed from one generation of educators to another.

Tim, these are the pertinent questions and they must be asked. This forum, however, may not be the place. Al M. came over last night again and fittingly, we finished with some Beethoven piano music. After the performance, I concluded, as long as people of all cultures and ages can play and and hear this music, Beethoven will survive. He is certainly alive and well now. As for the larger classical genre, it takes money to support full orchestras in great cities. Fortunately, we can hear smaller examples in chamber settings, on pianos in living rooms, and even the violinist on the street corners and in cafes.

Interestingly, my Beethoven LP was a not very special Deutsche Grammophon which followed some other fairly standard, non audiophile LPs, and Al and I recognized and subsequently discussed what Jeff Day is getting at with his "listening window". These ordinary recordings are accessible and they can all sound natural and excellent and engaging. There is no need for another expensive audiophile remastering of what already exists. The music is already out there and ready to be played and shared with others.

 

[Barry2013]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I don't recall seeing any references to Beethoven's position in a social and economic context. He did have very strong libertarian views, but was still very largely dependent on aristocratic individuals to commission his many compositions.
Until the 17th century most classical composers were dependent on royal or aristocratic employers or patrons eg Hayyn on Prince Esterhazer with Teleman probably being the main early exception. That was why he turned down the job in Leipzig subsequently given to JS Bach.
In Europe and here in the UK Handel was a notable pioneer of the successful composer/businessman who made a fortune,lost a fortune and made another one.Once a significant middle class emerged in Europe from the middle 17th century composers were liberated from the previously largely feudal relationsips they had to endure previously.
Listz was probably the first main megastar hence Listzomania and Verdi similarly. When he visited London in the late 19th century he was paid more than £1m in todays money..
The story of the success and achievements of classical music are very much a reflection of economic progress and the growth of democracy and Beethoven obviously contributed to that, but the really big changes came later.
Obviously a very brief and simplified account of a major cultural and economic upheaval, which probably deserves a thread of its own, but a start.

 

[montesquieu]

Seeing my little cousins attending a music school 20 years after I graduated from a music school myself, I must say I know exactly what you mean. The educational emphasis has shifted to a slightly new paradigm. On the bright side, the teachers/academics started to address students' needs to a much higher degree.

Playing an instrument has been shown to have significant cognitive benefits. Creative thinking, social and emotional intelligence, coordination, memorisation and auditory processing are all thought to improve in school-age children who learn music. There is no doubt that music education is beneficial on many levels. But, when it comes to the type of music to teach, things get less agreeable.

Forcing classical music on young kids and teenagers, especially when they feel like they want to connect with contemporary music, is not an ideal solution. Being forced to engage with classical music since the early childhood years, I developed a strong reluctance towards classical music, moving from piano to classical and acoustic guitars at the age of 15. I only learned how to appreciate classical music in my late 20s. But as Frank would say, I did it my way.

I assume what we need the most is the right balance between forcing classical music upon the young students and downplaying its importance at the same time.

'Forcing classical music on young kids and teenagers' - as if it was some kind of awful-tasting medicine!

When I was a music student, as well as spending many hours in the organ loft either playing or directing choirs, I also taught classical guitar and piano part-time at a Scottish high school. I was also playing keyboards and bass various bands (I was abit late for prog's first flowering, this was the New Romantic era, long hair and frilly shirts, though I did a season playing bass in a big band - the perfect introduction to jazz for a classical performer).

I taught the classical syllabus but the majority of my guitar pupils at least either played or had aspirations to play in bands themselves. They would ask questions about what gear to buy, and I'd occasionally meet some of them in the same pubs I was going to (I was only 18 when I started teaching - in fact when I was 19 I got caught by the head of department taking one of his star vocal pupils - only 17! - to an orchestral concert. We bumped into him at the interval. He just laughed and clapped me on the back. Of course today they would have called the police). But my young guitarists knew that every piece they learned by Bach or Fernando Sor was a gateway to useful knowledge and technique that would stay with them for life).

It's patronising in the extreme to think that kids should only be exposed to music that presents minimal challenge to their ears or brains.

Of course in a world where everything not instantly accessible by the hard of thinking is 'elitist', that denies there are any absolute artistic or musical standards, where everything is relative (morality in particular), and all must have prizes, it's not surprising that music education is a prime target for dumbing down.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Tim, these are the pertinent questions and they must be asked. This forum, however, may not be the place. Al M. came over last night again and fittingly, we finished with some Beethoven piano music. After the performance, I concluded, as long as people of all cultures and ages can play and and hear this music, Beethoven will survive. He is certainly alive and well now. As for the larger classical genre, it takes money to support full orchestras in great cities. Fortunately, we can hear smaller examples in chamber settings, on pianos in living rooms, and even the violinist on the street corners and in cafes.

Interestingly, my Beethoven LP was a not very special Deutsche Grammophon which followed some other fairly standard, non audiophile LPs, and Al and I recognized and subsequently discussed what Jeff Day is getting at with his "listening window". These ordinary recordings are accessible and they can all sound natural and excellent and engaging. There is no need for another expensive audiophile remastering of what already exists. The music is already out there and ready to be played and shared with others.

This is a much more balanced perspective... while I also get that the discussion of crazy out of balance responses are troubling but it seems these small ideas are just little short storms happening inside a tea cup... Beethoven’s music would confidently endure far greater challenges than these small tilts.

There would be musicians and listeners surely that would always find the inner strength and beauty in these works to be self evident. This kind of work just doesn’t come out of corruption.

 

[tima]

Interestingly, my Beethoven LP was a not very special Deutsche Grammophon which followed some other fairly standard, non audiophile LPs, and Al and I recognized and subsequently discussed what Jeff Day is getting at with his "listening window". These ordinary recordings are accessible and they can all sound natural and excellent and engaging. There is no need for another expensive audiophile remastering of what already exists. The music is already out there and ready to be played and shared with others.

I continue somewhat astonished at heretofore "ordinary recordings" coming alive under the stylus of a vdH Master Signature. Fulfilled potential can have many causes. Regardless of how we explain it, I agree with you the music is out there ready to be played. I also continue to appreciate that for sometime in the past conditions were such that so many great records were made in quantities that they remain available to us today.

 

[tima]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I don't recall seeing any references to Beethoven's position in a social and economic context. He did have very strong libertarian views, but was still very largely dependent on aristocratic individuals to commission his many compositions.
Until the 17th century most classical composers were dependent on royal or aristocratic employers or patrons eg Hayyn on Prince Esterhazer with Teleman probably being the main early exception. That was why he turned down the job in Leipzig subsequently given to JS Bach.
In Europe and here in the UK Handel was a notable pioneer of the successful composer/businessman who made a fortune,lost a fortune and made another one.Once a significant middle class emerged in Europe from the middle 17th century composers were liberated from the previously largely feudal relationsips they had to endure previously.
Listz was probably the first main megastar hence Listzomania and Verdi similarly. When he visited London in the late 19th century he was paid more than £1m in todays money..
The story of the success and achievements of classical music are very much a reflection of economic progress and the growth of democracy and Beethoven obviously contributed to that, but the really big changes came later.
Obviously a very brief and simplified account of a major cultural and economic upheaval, which probably deserves a thread of its own, but a start.

Art has always required patronage. That there are those having the means and the willingness to promote it is a positive. The conditions of liberty and democracy enable wider access and appreciation.

 

[tima]

Tim is this really the state of education over where you are. Sounds horrendous. Is it the teachers over there that are to blame do you think? What else could be causing it?

I did not reference teachers but rather educators, but yes, imo, the general student populace today is not receiving the same quality of education to the same standards as students of 20-30 years ago. Education systems particularly at university level value equal outcome over merit. When I was in the academy it was easy to spot the education majors - they always had the best tans.

Younger teachers tend to be go-along to get-along. Self preservation is the first priority of any guild . Educators don't like auditors. Rather than raise teaching standards and expectation for results, the answer is always more money, more buildings. School choice is limited or denied.

Parents who are a product of today's K-12 system value education less because it did not benefit them. Engagement with their child's education is less. Teachers resist allowing parents access to today's virtual or on-line classrooms. Yes, there are exceptions to all of this.

Sorry, I did not mean to go off course for this thread, but I have. I will not further comment on this particular topic.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I did not reference teachers but rather educators, but yes, imo, the general student populace today is not receiving the same quality of education to the same standards as students of 20-30 years ago. Education systems particularly at university level value equal outcome over merit. When I was in the academy it was easy to spot the education majors - they always had the best tans.

Younger teachers tend to be go-along to get-along. Self preservation is the first priority of any guild . Educators don't like auditors. Rather than raise teaching standards and expectation for results, the answer is always more money, more buildings. School choice is limited or denied.

Parents who are a product of today's K-12 system value education less because it did not benefit them. Engagement with their child's education is less. Teachers resist allowing parents access to today's virtual or on-line classrooms. Yes, there are exceptions to all of this.

Sorry, I did not mean to go off course for this thread, but I have. I will not further comment on this particular topic.

All good Tim, the reason I asked is that we don’t have quite the same issue over here or certainly not the apparently failing level that you are describing. That is why I asked, not because I don’t believe you but simply because I genuinely don’t have your insights on exactly what’s happening over there. As an educator (and that is the core of what every teacher is) I’d be completely mortified if my peers were so failing in their compass that way. I found that beyond troubling when you wrote this as I know how measured you are in your words and observant and yes education is a core element in our cultural development. PS we all have tans over here ... so that might be more telling lol. PPS lots of valid points too and yes it is a tough issue trying to swim against the tide for those of us in the middle in delivery.

But beyond that (and yes it’s perhaps straying too far afield) I also feel that music can transcend that and can be completely open to even the less well educated as well. The feeling nature I believe gets us even more directly to the essential core of music which is why I’m not genuinely concerned that an ephemeral small noise like the original journalist’s piece is actually going to wash away any truly great music.

As long as there are many who know and love music like this it will always be remembered and championed. I have plenty of faith in people (the listeners and the musicians) and perhaps as much faith again in the music itself as a distillation of what can be essentially great in us all.

 

[jeff1225]

I did not reference teachers but rather educators, but yes, imo, the general student populace today is not receiving the same quality of education to the same standards as students of 20-30 years ago. Education systems particularly at university level value equal outcome over merit. When I was in the academy it was easy to spot the education majors - they always had the best tans.

Younger teachers tend to be go-along to get-along. Self preservation is the first priority of any guild . Educators don't like auditors. Rather than raise teaching standards and expectation for results, the answer is always more money, more buildings. School choice is limited or denied.

Parents who are a product of today's K-12 system value education less because it did not benefit them. Engagement with their child's education is less. Teachers resist allowing parents access to today's virtual or on-line classrooms. Yes, there are exceptions to all of this.

Sorry, I did not mean to go off course for this thread, but I have. I will not further comment on this particular topic.

You miss the massive cuts to education funding throughout the United States. The No Child Left Behind program was the final move to a standardized testing focused education that did not value music classes. When budget cuts began, the first classes to be removed were music because of their low teacher to student ratios.

Music training is now the financial burden of the parents, if the parents are not wealthy the children will not be taught music.

 

[jeff1225]

Public service announcement that No Child Left Behind was a bi-partisan program led by Ted Kennedy (Democrat) and George W Bush (Republican.)

 

[Folsom]

Let’s not pretend like education is non-political or wasn’t butchered very badly by every administration.

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

'Forcing classical music on young kids and teenagers' - as if it was some kind of awful-tasting medicine!

When I was a music student, as well as spending many hours in the organ loft either playing or directing choirs, I also taught classical guitar and piano part-time at a Scottish high school. I was also playing keyboards and bass various bands (I was abit late for prog's first flowering, this was the New Romantic era, long hair and frilly shirts, though I did a season playing bass in a big band - the perfect introduction to jazz for a classical performer).

I taught the classical syllabus but the majority of my guitar pupils at least either played or had aspirations to play in bands themselves. They would ask questions about what gear to buy, and I'd occasionally meet some of them in the same pubs I was going to (I was only 18 when I started teaching - in fact when I was 19 I got caught by the head of department taking one of his star vocal pupils - only 17! - to an orchestral concert. We bumped into him at the interval. He just laughed and clapped me on the back. Of course today they would have called the police). But my young guitarists knew that every piece they learned by Bach or Fernando Sor was a gateway to useful knowledge and technique that would stay with them for life).

It's patronising in the extreme to think that kids should only be exposed to music that presents minimal challenge to their ears or brains.

Of course in a world where everything not instantly accessible by the hard of thinking is 'elitist', that denies there are any absolute artistic or musical standards, where everything is relative (morality in particular), and all must have prizes, it's not surprising that music education is a prime target for dumbing down.

I believe that we largely agree on critical issues. It seems that we place the emphasis somewhere else. Establishing or preserving absolute artistic or musical standards and exposing kids to challenging pieces is an indisputable necessity, as it has been in place for a few centuries. Allowing kids to engage with another genre ON TOP OF classical music at school is a different topic entirely. And I am not referring to the after-school self-practice, because anyone can do it, but rather to the actual guidance coming from the teachers. Apart from the socio-economic and political reasons, not allowing promising young artists to practice the kind of music they feel a connection to may also be a cause of the gradual decline in interest in the classical music.