Done with digital

Mike Lavigne

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Agree that there are many more PCM recordings.

I find it interesting that on the Wadax you find DSD sounds similar to 16/44. I may have to make a trip to Washington state sooner rather than later. ;)
not all 16/44. but lots of the native 16/44 simple recordings are equivalent. 16/44 comes in so many shapes and sizes of source quality. dsd native is mostly well recorded stuff. the recording is king......and native.....always.
 
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Phillyb

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I grew up on vinyl-owned 1st pressings from the time I was 8 till 42. A friend brought over his Sony XA7ES if I recall, and he played my LP and then his new mastered CD of the same, I told him don't bother, and he said to stay open-minded. Back and forth we went, and I told him to be honest it is hard to tell, that got me thinking, then I walked into my record store and saw hundreds of titles that would never see the day again on vinyl, all who wanted those LP's owned them and young buyers like me still would have little interest in them. So around 1995, I picked up the top-of-line Sony, and a few years later the SONY SCD1, later the Esoteric, Luxman, Cary, and Marantz, and so on, and then mastering CDs really improved, CD players also like any technology does as Vinyl did between the 1930-the 1950s and '60s. really improved as the understanding of the digital and reproduction improved. Like any young technology, there is a learning curve be it Vinyl or Digital. Well, I sold my 2,000 LP collection to a private collector out of NY and started buying CDs and never looked back nor miss it. I did like the LP covers a lot.

Yes, some of my old LPs sounded better, but many CDs sounded as good, and some better than the LP version I had, and why? it is the care talking in mastering and transferring to the CD and the LP when I purchased it, so nothing changed, crap job equaled crap sound. It is not the medium itself if the company does not care about sound quality no matter the format it will suck. I can enjoy both formats, but to say one is better, well that is not what I found to this day and I care about sound quality. I will say an analog tape 50-60 years old will not sound as good as when I first purchased the original pressings. So that has to be factored in today on newer vinyl and what CD had to deal with years ago. How about even finding that mother master tape after so many years, many companies cared little once sales were depleted after so many years.

With a turntable, the sound produced is whatever arm you use, the cartridge you selected, the TT mat used, the platter merterial, the phono amp used, and most of all proper setup of the arm, tracking, etc. Impacts and changes the sound, change anyone the sound changes, that why we decide on a stylus and its sound, not to mention sound changing from record to record based on the thickness of the vinyl or thinness of the vinyl used each would throw off your setup of the arm a bit so it would mean warmer or thinner sound, I used to adjust my arm say if I got a 180-gram vinyl LP, The old Telarc recorders, Sheffield Labs and so on. Then what started to happen in the mid-late '70s when vinyl pressing and quality went to hell due to the cost of oil. So many LPs did I return, and the sound quality was iffy at best, compression started big time, and I remember finding bubbles and debris in the LPs. vinyl and a flat LP rare.

When I had vinyl and got my cartridge replaced, the setup at the store took 2 hours or more, they had scopes showing tracking errors, separation channel to channel and so. Today no store I've been to has such equipment nor the expertise as Vinyl's golden ERA dealers did I am sure there are some audio stores that do a great job today but many areas have no such stores today and those that do use common setup and a disc-like any of us could do. Streaming is the way now, people follow trends, its hip, its easy, and magazines make trends, and the way to listen has changed for any non-boomer, my kids won't even bother to sit in front of 2 speakers, they find that a waste of time, earbuds and they are out the door hundred of songs on their phones. Who wants a full recording, they want a song of that recording.

I don't follow magazines or trends, when you think about the CD medium being #1 their reviews said systems had state-of-the-art sound, superb imaging, and on and on for 20 years, now they say at every chance they get CD sound sucked, so go figure, they must have had a crap for ears then if something so good in their reviews now sounds so bad. Trust them as an arm of sales for the same major companies and advertisers.

If I thought vinyl was that much superior I would never have sold my collection nor my Luxman PD 444 turntable the Fidelity Research Arm, or my DECCA Gold Stylus with a Mark Levinson phono stage designed by John Curl. I am not sick of Vinyl or Digital and their sound, but I am sick of poor music recordings of the past 25 years, and compression used along with folks no longer playing together in the same room, now individual tracks are sent in and the producers put them together as he sees fit and the "sound" that is hot today come with Sonics so bad that having a high-end audio system is waste money to play noting but processed music, I can understand why my kid's earbuds are truly all you need for this music, I am OK with that because 99.5% of the buying consumers are not audiophiles and care little about true sound quality, but I like quality recordings that made the attempt to sound as real as possible that not the goal today unless it is classical, some Jazz, and small recording labels and currently PS Audio.

Vinyl was in that golden sound quality heyday back then as well as tubes being the audiophile's #1 choice of music playback which I am sure made my vinyl sound so good colored as tubes sound was back then, but it made things sound real, meat on the bones back then compared to the hyper, bleached sound I hear today more than not and they feel to blast you out of the room makes for a good system, they know zip on setup and presenting a system at shows for many. Even the salesman today cannot compare to the guys from the 60s-1980s then had years and years of experience and passion not just for selling you something but helping you put together a sound you would enjoy at home.

The Absolute Sound is the sound that moves you and brings you enjoyment. No review can help you with that, it's their room, their gear, etc. You need an experienced salesman and your 2 ears in their store and then to take it home and listen in your listening environment. Never think that old line was true your hearing it as the artist intended, no that was in the studio only. Our gear, cables, and room acoustics change that many times over but we do have the ability to build a system where we enjoy music to our own ears and taste in sonic reproduction.

Many audio stores have died off and today many of us can listen to only a limited amount of gear, the best line I heard is what killed the audio stores? the audiophiles did (Pay Full Price?), Audiogon did, USAudiomart, and others, not to mention the escalating prices pricing out many even many with very good incomes. The middle class is not a thought anymore.

It is still a boomers hobby and that is not good, I'm 71 now not 29 when I started buying gear, and my hearing is still very good, so I am blessed, but my days of buying gear are about done, I know good when it is good, chasing the tail no more, and to be honest I remember systems back when I started sounding superb, so good is good no matter the ERA, I still am buying a good CD now and then, but with my collection, I really have any recording I've dreamed of owning at my fingertips, and I still can get up and walk over and pull a CD, boy that wore me out..smile! I still like the hunt though of finding a recording I might have wanted, CD Japan, Discogs, and Amazon, you really don't need a record store anymore many know zip about music to ask them a question is useless.
Found this article.
3 Trends That Prove CDs are Making a Comeback (discogs.com)
 
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microstrip

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it was an EMT948 (similar direct drive to the 930).

Perhaps you are making some confusion - the EMT948 is a direct drive with a disk tachometer and the EMT930 is an idler wheel drive turntable - the small cousin of the EMT927. Are you referring to the EMT938? I owned it and it was nothing special.
 

sbo6

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As good as digital as gotten, and my recent DAC survey experience proves to me that it has gotten very, very good, I still experience a very slight and subtle discomfort and fatigue with digital that I find hard to explain. I wonder if this theory explains it.
Might simply be confirmation bias. We believe what we want to.
 

microstrip

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(....)

i could see the error correcting chips Wadax has created being licensed for the pro audio world.....at some point. i have no inside info on that, just a random thought.

As far as I remember the MQA people tried something similar, but using software, and were cursed forever on it ...
 

Cellcbern

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Might simply be confirmation bias. We believe what we want to.
Confirmation bias - the all purpose cop-out response when there is nothing insightful to add to the discussion. Confirmation bias can happen initially, and not just with audio - but also with a first date, new car, or highly reviewed new restaurant. But I don't believe that confirmation bias sustains over extended listening (multiple sessions) or with the impressions of other listeners, at least not for listeners who have learned what to listen for and are aware of their listening biases.
 
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sbo6

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Confirmation bias - the all purpose cop-out response when there is nothing insightful to add to the discussion. Confirmation bias can happen initially, and not just with audio - but also with a first date, new car, or highly reviewed new restaurant. But I don't believe that confirmation bias sustains over extended listening (multiple sessions) or with the impressions of other listeners, at least not for listeners who have learned what to listen for and are aware of their listening biases.
Thanks for your opinion, as condescending and biased as it might be.

And while I can see how some who look for more than is really there may see it as a "cop-out response" sometimes things (and people) are simpler than one might imagine. Also, please go read what confirmation bias is as it's exactly what you say it is not, a long lasting, self - gratifying self - fulfilling bias.
 

Cellcbern

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Thanks for your opinion, as condescending and biased as it might be.

And while I can see how some who look for more than is really there may see it as a "cop-out response" sometimes things (and people) are simpler than one might imagine. Also, please go read what confirmation bias is as it's exactly what you say it is not, a long lasting, self - gratifying self - fulfilling bias.
Substitute "listening" for "thinking" in this definition:

 
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Cellcbern

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Thanks for your opinion, as condescending and biased as it might be.

And while I can see how some who look for more than is really there may see it as a "cop-out response" sometimes things (and people) are simpler than one might imagine. Also, please go read what confirmation bias is as it's exactly what you say it is not, a long lasting, self - gratifying self - fulfilling bias.
Not intending to be condescending. But "confirmation bias" is the default objectivist response to people who say they hear differences among audio devices and as such is an insult to the intelligence of audiophiles who have spent decades honing their critical listening skills. Confirmation bias exists in the world. For me it is not the automatic fallback explanation for differences you can't explain.
 
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DeadWax

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I prefer the sound and experience of listening to vinyl, which to me provides more impact and texture and nuance. With that said, I listen to digital more often simply because it's so convenient and allows me to explore new music, all while still sounding extremely good. I feel that my Lampi DAC is a good portion of why I enjoy the digital experience as much as I do (along with my largely tube-based system), despite not quite getting to joy delivered by vinyl.
 

microstrip

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Might simply be confirmation bias. We believe what we want to.

In this hobby it is very hard to separate confirmation or negative bias from education. Biases can easily turn in a solid preference after some time of exposition to particular gear.
 

bryans

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In this hobby it is very hard to separate confirmation or negative bias from education
Can you elaborate on this? When you say education what are you referring to?

Curious minds want to know (well maybe just me)
 

microstrip

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Can you elaborate on this? When you say education what are you referring to?

Curious minds want to know (well maybe just me)

Listening to high-end stereo needs education - the information presented by the system is very incomplete and we fill the gaps to create the illusion of the performance. Our live musical experience and experience with other audio systems has a lot of influence on it - it is what I call education.

Please note all IMHO and YMMV!
 

Fishfood

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I was a stereo salesman in college when the first Sony CD player came to our store and we played it on the giant Infinity IRS Speakers through the Threshold amp/pre combo. Blew us all away at first and then as the days progressed and someone brought in an LP12 to compare it to, we lost a bit of that excitement-- and also we only had three CDs so maybe that had something to do with it. I got behind CDs until 1998 when I realized I had stopped listening to music for the prior 2 years and a friend that was still in the business suggested grabbing a Music Hall turntable and that started me back up. I've spent a chunk of money trying out digital on 3 different occasions since then and each time, usually a month or so later when the fatigue sets in, the gear goes up for sale.
 

Cellcbern

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In this hobby it is very hard to separate confirmation or negative bias from education. Biases can easily turn in a solid preference after some time of exposition to particular gear.
You've lost me. People with educated ears, while still subject to confirmation bias initially, will recognize that in themselves (sometimes with the help of other listeners) and over time will hear through that initial bias. If then based on extended critical listening you develop preferences for particular components and accessories because they sound the best to you what does that have to do with confirmation bias? Isn't it in fact the goal of this hobby - to assemble a system that meets your goals?
 
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microstrip

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You've lost me. Educated ears, while still subject to confirmation bias initially, will recognize that in themselves (sometimes with the help of other listeners) and over time will hear through that initial bias. If then based on extended critical listening you develop preferences for particular components and accessories because they sound the best to you what does that have to do with confirmation bias? Isn't it in fact the goal of this hobby - to assemble a system that meets your goals?

I will make it simple - confirmation bias creates an illusionary state that helps you keeping interested in the system and listening. Slowly you get familiar to it and start noticing and getting used to its characteristic aspects, enjoying them.

The high-end marketing literature exploits these aspects.
 

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