Downsizing? Am I crazy??

[LL21]

Third: Put another way...why did you even begin breaking up a stunning system that took 40 years to build in the first place?

As an audiophile I'm looking for something to elevate my enjoyment of music. Something that can allow me to check out of reality for a moment and simply enjoy the music. My current system does that for me, but I also know that a more modest system could do the same.

As an observer, your answer above to why you elected to sell did not seem [to me] to be overwhelmingly compelling. You state above that your current system achieves the 'check out of reality' for you...great...but your reasoning for selling it was that a modest system could do the same? And once you'd sold the amps...you were starting to have doubts.

My two cents? I think you might for some reason be thinking too much about all the time/money you've spent in building and listening to your system as "an expense" and trying to undo it. Your answer seemed more about leaving something...than going towards something you want more. As a fellow audiophile, i would throw my two cents in to say you've worked awfully hard and long to build a tremendous system. i dont need to take your word for it (even though that is the only word that matters)...i can tell by your components and your passion it must be pretty awesome. Enjoy it.

If you actually decide you DONT enjoy it...or that you definitively WANT something else smaller...then you've found something ELSE to make you even happier and then i think you will be dlighted to sell without such second thoughts. Just my two cents.

 

[mep]

Personally, I have never wanted to ‘dumb’ my system down and settle for less than what I had. Sometimes that happens by accident when you ‘upgrade', and you lick your financial wounds and go back to what you had that you know was better. I think there will always be remorse if you are selling something that was great in order to settle for the less good.

 

[flez007]

The notion of ROI has come often in this thread. How do you define ROI I suppose it is Return On Investment) in the context of music reproduction?

It is quite easy, at least for me FrantzM, no matter if any given investment breaks your savings if it worths it - sadly it happens the other side around sometimes talking about downsizing.

 

[audioguy]

The OP also noted that he wasn't spending that much time listening to music. I have the same issue: I have a wife; I own a small business; I exercise; I watch movies; we go,out on dates; we take vacations; I'm addicted to football and the list goes on: there was a time many many moons ago where I could listen to music 4 to 6 days per week. Now I'm fortunate if it is once every other week. When I had we'll over $100K tied up in hardware, I felt "guilty" for having that kind of money used so little.

As noted previously , I'm very comfortable with my decision.

Now if I were to win the lottery ........

 

[treitz3]

The OP also noted that he wasn't spending that much time listening to music. I have the same issue: I have a wife; I own a small business; I exercise; I watch movies; we go,out on dates; we take vacations; I'm addicted to football and the list goes on: there was a time many many moons ago where I could listen to music 4 to 6 days per week. Now I'm fortunate if it is once every other week. When I had we'll over $100K tied up in hardware, I felt "guilty" for having that kind of money used so little.

I have often felt the same way from time to time when just finding the time to listen gets harder and harder each day. Then, I'll warm the system up and the uncontrollable goose bumps and euphoria seemingly slap me in the face and offer me a reality check. It is these times to where I reflect back on all of the gear that has come and gone. Monies wasted and monies well spent. While listening, it all becomes worth it and I realize that this is my hobby, this is [in part] my life and unless times hit so hard that I had to start letting things go?

The system stays.

It has even gotten to the point to where nothing is let go until something else moves the system further along the audio journey. It is of my opinion that one can enjoy music regardless of what it's being broadcast over but when you reach a certain level to achieve accurate reproduction and it's paid for? Stop and smell the roses. Then "make" time to enjoy the fragrance. No matter how busy life gets, feel good that's it's still there for you when you need to unwind and get back to the one enjoyment that has taken such a hold on your life.

Then just simply enjoy the music.

Tom

 

[Bill Hart]

My interest, time and enthusiasm for the hobby has waxed and waned over the years- I'm ok with that. There were periods when I was on the road and never home- other times just wanted to press a button and watch a movie, or go for a drive. But, somehow, I've stayed attached enough to come back with a vengence after a fallow period. In the process, my tastes have expanded or changed, I've learned more, and enjoy it differently (and more, but I'm on an 'upswing' period right now). I've come to accept that as part of my personality. And, as I get older, I'm somehow more open to different music and my listening is more relaxed (as long as I'm not suffering from a bout of 'OMG, there's a tube on the blink' type nervosa).
I could easily live with a small system based on some old Quads.

 

[RBFC]

I believe that there are times when music becomes important, as if we need a certain "vitamin" in our diet. Deficiencies don't manifest themselves immediately, but eventually are undeniable.

Lee

 

[JackD201]

My thinking is if you have to think about it even if you don't have to do it, don't. That goes for buying stuff as well as selling stuff.

 

[AMP]

As an observer, your answer above to why you elected to sell did not seem [to me] to be overwhelmingly compelling. You state above that your current system achieves the 'check out of reality' for you...great...but your reasoning for selling it was that a modest system could do the same? And once you'd sold the amps...you were starting to have doubts.

My two cents? I think you might for some reason be thinking too much about all the time/money you've spent in building and listening to your system as "an expense" and trying to undo it. Your answer seemed more about leaving something...than going towards something you want more. As a fellow audiophile, i would throw my two cents in to say you've worked awfully hard and long to build a tremendous system. i dont need to take your word for it (even though that is the only word that matters)...i can tell by your components and your passion it must be pretty awesome. Enjoy it.

The "why?" in itself is long and drawn out. Part of it stems from my perception of my audio spending as being irresponsible. Not in the sense that I put everything on a credit card and haven't paid it off (paid cash for everything), but more in the sense that I have diverted an inordinate amount of money into this sole obsession of mine. As I approach 40 I start to wonder if the thrill of the chase combined with the ability to rationalize just about anything led to me making a bad and selfish decision. The problem is that my solution is 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

In the sense of going toward something my justification was that this do-over would land me with a moderately priced system (my total investment would be the cost of the integrated amp since I already have the speakers) and a stash of cash that I could be more responsible with. I guess I would be moving away from my audio-related goals and toward more life-related goals.

The OP also noted that he wasn't spending that much time listening to music. I have the same issue: I have a wife; I own a small business; I exercise; I watch movies; we go,out on dates; we take vacations; I'm addicted to football and the list goes on: there was a time many many moons ago where I could listen to music 4 to 6 days per week. Now I'm fortunate if it is once every other week. When I had we'll over $100K tied up in hardware, I felt "guilty" for having that kind of money used so little.

Now if I were to win the lottery ........

This is EXACTLY my situation. There's always something else to do and although sitting and listening to music is the easiest thing most of the time the others are more important or more immediately satisfying.

I too have felt guilty over the amount of money sunk into the stereo.

One of the things that set this all off was the fact that my wife and I (after six years) finally had the ability to walk away from our business and go on vacation. After being so driven for so long we both realized that there's a lot more to life than the small business crisis of the moment and the relatively sheltered life that has created for us. We started to talk about all of the things that we could do as the business grew up and learned to walk on its own and none of those things involved the stereo!

Of course, if money were no object I wouldn't even be considering any of this.

My interest, time and enthusiasm for the hobby has waxed and waned over the years- I'm ok with that. There were periods when I was on the road and never home- other times just wanted to press a button and watch a movie, or go for a drive. But, somehow, I've stayed attached enough to come back with a vengence after a fallow period. In the process, my tastes have expanded or changed, I've learned more, and enjoy it differently (and more, but I'm on an 'upswing' period right now). I've come to accept that as part of my personality. And, as I get older, I'm somehow more open to different music and my listening is more relaxed (as long as I'm not suffering from a bout of 'OMG, there's a tube on the blink' type nervosa).
I could easily live with a small system based on some old Quads.

I've followed this pattern myself through the course of my life and I'm well aware of the fact that I periodically switch interests into something new or something which I have neglected. My biggest fear in selling the system was knowing that I would eventually come back to audio (the gear part of it) and start frantically kicking myself.

I believe that there are times when music becomes important, as if we need a certain "vitamin" in our diet. Deficiencies don't manifest themselves immediately, but eventually are undeniable.

Lee

Absolutely agreed!

 

[audioguy]

I don't think it need be all or none. With technology getting better and the large quantities of used equipment available on Audiogon, one can put together an amazing audio system for a whole lot less than $100K or $30k or even less.

An audio buddy has the very best 2 channel audio system I have ever heard and my guess is that he has $175,000 invested in just the hardware components. He has heard my system and commented that it was 80% to 90% of his. And the cost of my 2 channel gear is about 1/10th of his. The last 10% to 20% is very expensive. He said he could be very comfortable living with my system --- and I fell zero guilt when I'm not listening.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't dump your gear but I am suggesting that you can still have a very nice music system for a very reasonable amount of money.

My $0.02

 

[LL21]

AMP

Seems like you're starting to think this thru. Take your time and enjoy the music while you give it some thought. If your position is clearly that money no object, you'd keep it...that says something. If it is more about time and effort spent...well, by thinking about this, dismantling the system, and then building up a whole new one that is less complex...ironically takes up a lot of time and effort. Setting aside dollars, if you really wanted to focus on other things, you could just buy a great integrated and then leave the system be. Play it and enjoy it when you wish. Good luck.

 

[FrantzM]

I don't think it need be all or none. With technology getting better and the large quantities of used equipment available on Audiogon, one can put together an amazing audio system for a whole lot less than $100K or $30k or even less.

An audio buddy has the very best 2 channel audio system I have ever heard and my guess is that he has $175,000 invested in just the hardware components. He has heard my system and commented that it was 80% to 90% of his. And the cost of my 2 channel gear is about 1/10th of his. The last 10% to 20% is very expensive. He said he could be very comfortable living with my system --- and I fell zero guilt when I'm not listening.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't dump your gear but I am suggesting that you can still have a very nice music system for a very reasonable amount of money.

My $0.02

Having beenfor the past two years on asteady diet of Headphones and having been more focused than I ever have been on the Music I entirely concur... If a person is patient building a great system doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. With care and patience one can with $30K assemble a full range , full scale system that will challenge $100 K and up systems ...

@AMP

I would invite you to put your hands on a so-called "Music-Server" the one conceived by Gary L Koh is excellent and frighteningly cheap by Audiophiles standards : Less than $600 would provide a quality of digital playback most will certainly not believe, easily surpassing any dedicated and expensive CD transports you want to think of plus the convenience is nonpareil. You want to listen to Rock, type "rock" .. Easy Only to Led Zep. ? You type "Led Zep" from your iPad or your wireless keyboard or your laptop ... You want to listen to songs from the 80's same , easy. I am supposing that your DAC has an USB if it doesn't you can get USB to SPDIF converters for relatively little money from M2Tech or HRT (respectively $500 and $150) .. ... This way you listen to music in an incredibly convenient fashion ... In the beginning I worried about Liner Notes but the combination of the iPad and the Internet makes Liner Notes almost superfluous (I know microstrip: The tactile feeling and quality of a great paper and all that but I can google almost anything I need to know about the album, the artists and their family before listening to the album because during listening ... No go ... I also do know that it is not always easy to find the libretti on the Internet , well one can keep the Liner notes after ripping the CDs). Most people who have gone the music server way will tell you that the convenience has you listening to much more music ... Which at the end is what the whole exercise must be about ...

One last thing and please do not take it as a knock on your system. I know some of the components of your system and it is a great system ... Yet a system is in a room and it could be that for the amount you have invested in it .. The satisfaction is simply not there and the Room is often the culprit ... Time to think about two somewhat related items: Room Acoustics and SUBWOOFERS (multiple...) They may change your system in dramatic ways ... Once the room issues have been tamed and the bass dialed in the system acquires a different life, a different,superior fashion of portraying music, even the highs seem to improve (Let's not discuss this please in this thread ... ) ..

Stop the selling for now and yes, add that little non-audiophile piece of equipment, you can always use that laptop or return it .. The music server will not take you a week to put together... Room Acoustics and subwoofers much longer but in my experience , well worth it... You may find yourself not caring about the pressings and the mastering and just enjoying the music again on your already great system... It may only need a few nudges, not tweaks to fulfill its potential if that is what's lacking.

 

[microstrip]

I don't think it need be all or none. With technology getting better and the large quantities of used equipment available on Audiogon, one can put together an amazing audio system for a whole lot less than $100K or $30k or even less.

An audio buddy has the very best 2 channel audio system I have ever heard and my guess is that he has $175,000 invested in just the hardware components. He has heard my system and commented that it was 80% to 90% of his. And the cost of my 2 channel gear is about 1/10th of his. The last 10% to 20% is very expensive. He said he could be very comfortable living with my system --- and I fell zero guilt when I'm not listening.

I'm not suggesting you should or shouldn't dump your gear but I am suggesting that you can still have a very nice music system for a very reasonable amount of money.

My $0.02

Audioguy,

There is some truth in your words, but IMHO it is an exceptional condition, not a general one. Most of the time buying blind from used equipment sites will lead you to a long ride, without any warranty of success. Just read the cases presented at WBF ... Most of the audiophiles do not have your experience and persistence. The quality of the materials is important, but we should not minimize the importance of the cooker.

I also say similar nice things to friends who own systems costing much less than mine. But IMHO, the last 10-20% are really worth it. And I do not feel guilty for my audio, the water I drink or the oxygen I breathe.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I would invite you to put your hands on a so-called "Music-Server" the one conceived by Gary L Koh is excellent and frighteningly cheap by Audiophiles standards : Less than $600 would provide a quality of digital playback most will certainly not believe, easily surpassing any dedicated and expensive CD transports you want to think of plus the convenience is nonpareil. You want to listen to Rock, type "rock" .. Easy Only to Led Zep. ? You type "Led Zep" from your iPad or your wireless keyboard or your laptop ... You want to listen to songs from the 80's same , easy. I am supposing that your DAC has an USB if it doesn't you can get USB to SPDIF converters for relatively little money from M2Tech or HRT (respectively $500 and $150) .. ... This way you listen to music in an incredibly convenient fashion ... In the beginning I worried about Liner Notes but the combination of the iPad and the Internet makes Liner Notes almost superfluous (I know microstrip: The tactile feeling and quality of a great paper and all that but I can google almost anything I need to know about the album, the artists and their family before listening to the album because during listening ... No go ... I also do know that it is not always easy to find the libretti on the Internet , well one can keep the Liner notes after ripping the CDs). Most people who have gone the music server way will tell you that the convenience has you listening to much more music ... Which at the end is what the whole exercise must be about ...

Frantz,

As you expect I disagree completely on this advice for many reasons, all IMHO. First the opportunity - telling someone who had a great system to build a "so-called Music server" telling him that he will surely get a quality easily surpassing any dedicated and expensive CD system with a expenditure of usd 600 is misleading and wrong. Also building a music server needs patience and expertise and it is not an easy job, even from Gary instructions. Perhaps Amp can do it, but he should be aware of it.

Second, most probably Amp has tuned his system for some sound specificity he likes - how can you be sure that he will enjoy the sound of a generic music server?

Our experiences differ about the acceptance of music servers, perhaps we should carry a poll in a separate thread about its acceptance by true music lovers, not internet freaks. Needing to use Google before listening to music is not part of my world.

Sorry to know that you feel confident enough to define Which at the end is what the whole exercise must be about ... for others. Most of the time I fight for quality, not only for quantity - but perhaps it is just my selfish perspective, that I like to share with others.

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

Truly the idea is to transfer a file to a DAC and music servers do that day in and out , Gary has access to anything one can dream, yet he uses a music server. I remember a BAAS session account. In this session, Astrotoy brought his "music server" and it was compared to Steve Studer R2R.. To those that were present, the R2R was superior but the very cheap Astrotoy contraption held its own. If someone follows Gary's instructions, carefully and does ask questions here, he/she would be able to have a music server ready and plug it to his/her DAC in less than a week, it is work but doable work. No it is not simple! Never said it would be done in a day but yes in a week to a person not knowledgeable about PCs et all and you can have people help. Meanwhile the expenditure is reasonable; the end product is high performance and does allow much faster, convenient and ergonomic access to his/her music collection. Or he/she can later always go for a more "audiophile-accepted" music server from several companies offering them. Isn't it worth considering? a PC based music server will be the pants of most any tranports out there of that you beter be certain. These are paradigm shift ..Prejudices on the notion are falling, Computer-based music is here to stay physical media are on their way out... The action in digital is in DAC ... fewer and fewer companies make transports only

Now regardless of the Quality of music you listen I doubt you listen to the same albums over and over. I could be wrong and you could indeed have been listening to the same albums over and over, If that is how you wish to and do enjoy music by all means carry on ... I do think that you are losing a lot of the action in term of musical worth... The ideal for me and likely most of us would be to have both great Sound Quality and musical worth, yet many of us listen to whatever is available thus we listen to the poor tansfer of the Beattles regardless or to heavily multi-miked Deutsche Gramophon Karajan recordings.. etc ...

Now your generalization about Internet freaks is a slur to all of those who use music servers or were contemplating the move.. I wan't entirely sure on how to answer to it... maybe it it didn't deserve a reply ..Oh well...


One last note. I have had the greatest experience buying used High End products. I don't know how it is those days but my experiences have been positive in this area. YMMV may vary.

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

Truly the idea is to transfer a file to a DAC and music servers do that day in and out , Gary has access to anything one can dream, yet he uses a music server. I remember a BAAS session account. In this session, Astrotoy brought his "music server" and it was compared to Steve Studer R2R.. To those that were present, the R2R was superior but the very cheap Astrotoy contraption held its own. If someone follows Gary's instructions, carefully and does ask questions here, he/she would be able to have a music server ready and plug it to his/her DAC in less than a week, it is work but doable work. No it is not simple! Never said it would be done in a day but yes in a week to a person not knowledgeable about PCs et all and you can have people help. Meanwhile the expenditure is reasonable; the end product is high performance and does allow much faster, convenient and ergonomic access to his/her music collection. Or he/she can later always go for a more "audiophile-accepted" music server from several companies offering them. Isn't it worth considering? a PC based music server will be the pants of most any tranports out there of that you beter be certain. These are paradigm shift ..Prejudices on the notion are falling, Computer-based music is here to stay physical media are on their way out... The action in digital is in DAC ... fewer and fewer companies make transports only

Now regardless of the Quality of music you listen I doubt you listen to the same albums over and over. I could be wrong and you could indeed have been listening to the same albums over and over, If that is how you wish to and do enjoy music by all means carry on ... I do think that you are losing a lot of the action in term of musical worth... The ideal for me and likely most of us would be to have both great Sound Quality and musical worth, yet many of us listen to whatever is available thus we listen to the poor tansfer of the Beattles regardless or to heavily multi-miked Deutsche Gramophon Karajan recordings.. etc ...

Now your generalization about Internet freaks is a slur to all of those who use music servers or were contemplating the move.. I wan't entirely sure on how to answer to it... maybe it it didn't deserve a reply ..Oh well...


One last note. I have had the greatest experience buying used High End products. I don't know how it is those days but my experiences have been positive in this area. YMMV may vary.

Frantz,

Gary is a professional user, I respect him a lot and like a lot his postings, but can not consider him a typical audiophile. Besides the argument "he has access to anything he can dream" does not prove anything. Perhaps I have been unlucky, but I never listened to a low cost music server and DAC sounding comparable to SOTA CD based system.
I have no doubts that soon or later this will be possible, but I do not see that this moment has already arrived. I think that the prejudices will only disappear when all issues related to quality of music servers are systematically understood and clearly corrected, not hidden from the public using the argument that bits are just bits. Yesterday I received a mail from a good friend staying abroad who converted to a PC music server and spent almost one year assembling a SOTA system using the best parts, with plenty of SDD, convection cooled parts, etc. He was very happy - he just upgraded to JRiver Media Center MC18, now the WASAPI Event Style works perfectly and sounds much better than the ASIO4ALL or something else I can not understand from his enthusiastic mail I am partially quoting. Not everyone cup of tea, IMHO.

Computer music is here to stay, no doubts. This was not being debated. What was being debated was your advise to Amp to help in solving his dilemma.

Considering internet freaks, I hope that you take no offense when I consider that any WBF member (me and you included) are internet freaks ...

My long experience of buying used gear was also great, as I could try equipment that I could not afford otherwise, but very often I ended with systems that were not fully optimized, as I was not able to get the missing links also at nice prices. And I do not consider myself or you typical buyers.

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, all due respect but let's refrain from getting off the topic here. The topic is downsizing and offering thoughts on doing so. Let's get back to the spirit of the thread and if you want to continue such discussions, feel free to start another thread about the topic you would like to discuss. In the meantime, let's stay the course with regards to this thread. Thank you.

Tom

 

[AMP]

Many, many thanks to all who responded, shared experiences and offered advice. I've put the sale of the system on hold for now in order to regroup and evaluate my options.

At this point I'm leaning more to the conclusion that yes, I would be crazy to break up the system right now. I've arranged to borrow a pair of MB-450s for a little while and will use that loan to help decide if I want to move forward with the system as it is or break it up and go for something much simpler. I'll pickup the amps next weekend and hopefully come to a final conclusion within a couple of weeks.

 

[audioguy]

A sage piece of advice was given to me many years ago and had I consistently lived by it, my life would have been significantly less complex. The advice: "When in doubt, don't"

You are doing the right thing.

 

[Gregadd]

That's a great poem, Gregadd.

My father gave that to me in a birthday card when I turned thirteen.

They are truly words to live by.

Once again I'll accept the award on Rudyard Kiplings behalf. They truly are words to live by.

Greg.