Dsd compared to redbook

opus111

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No, I can't see any way that post-processing can undo the damage done prior. That damage is done at the stage of the single-bit quantizer as far as I can see.

The fact that many prefer DSD's sound is not in doubt, it really raises several questions in my mind vis-a-vis what implementation of PCM they're comparing it with. Nowadays most people do not listen to PCM via a PCM (i.e. multibit) DAC, they use an S-D one where the PCM is pre-converted into low-bit before the actual D/A. This conversion of PCM to low-bit brings with it some of the issues that L&V identify - i.e. noise modulation. So in comparisons between RB and DSD, the RB is already hamstrung with some of the drawbacks inherent in DSD. Not a fair comparison in my book ;)
 

dmnc02

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No, I can't see any way that post-processing can undo the damage done prior. That damage is done at the stage of the single-bit quantizer as far as I can see.

The fact that many prefer DSD's sound is not in doubt, it really raises several questions in my mind vis-a-vis what implementation of PCM they're comparing it with. Nowadays most people do not listen to PCM via a PCM (i.e. multibit) DAC, they use an S-D one where the PCM is pre-converted into low-bit before the actual D/A. This conversion of PCM to low-bit brings with it some of the issues that L&V identify - i.e. noise modulation. So in comparisons between RB and DSD, the RB is already hamstrung with some of the drawbacks inherent in DSD. Not a fair comparison in my book ;)

I assume that the same is true when people listen to DSD on multi-bit DAC's, which are actually the majority of high-end DAC's: these DAC's hamstring DSD, correct?
 

opus111

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I'm not sure that the majority of high-end DACs are multibit - I only know of a few. AMR and Light Harmonic spring to mind, along with Audio Note and TotalDAC. But yes your point is totally correct - a conversion of DSD to PCM would introduce artifacts which would hamstring DSD. Charles Hansen of Ayre tried various methods to convert DSD to multibit and none he found satisfactory - there was a thread (elsewhere) that mentioned this which I could dig up. Charles' listening impressions incidentally are that DSD sounds inherently 'soft'.

<edit> I don't believe the conversion process between DSD and PCM in theory is flawed, what happens is that the resulting PCM has to be played back through a PCM type DAC which has its own issues. So the problems with PCM here are implementation ones, not theoretical ones. DSD in my estimation has both theoretical and implementation problems.

Oh and I forgot to add that none of the multibit DACs I've heard of play back DSD. The first two I've mentioned above use a different DAC internally to play back non-RB material.
 
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dmnc02

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Opus111, thank you for all the information. I have a strong preference for the sound of bit-streamed DSD over PCM in my system, but I understand that the comparison is somewhat biased by the the fact that I am using a delta-sigma DAC. I will try at some point to borrow a multi-bit DAC of comparable quality and re-assess PCM vs. DSD.
 

asiufy

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Oh and I forgot to add that none of the multibit DACs I've heard of play back DSD. The first two I've mentioned above use a different DAC internally to play back non-RB material.

opus,

I'm curious about your opinion of the MSB Diamond DACs. They are multibit (AFAIK), and they do DSD now. I haven't seen further details on this, so I don't know if they do it natively or convert it on the fly to PCM. But the results are good, better than playing the same DSD pre-converted to PCM using software.
Their manual goes to great lenghts to explain the superiority of multibit ladder DACs over single bit D-S DACs, quite a fun read :)


thanks,
alexandre
 

hvbias

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I am a big fan of multibit ladder DACs, my reference prior to my current working prototype was an Assemblage using PCM1704. However I agree with opus111 that I do not hear the drawbacks of S-D converters with the ESS DAC (mine uses 9018). It is highly resolving, but doesn't have the hashy treble and flat sound I hear on so many S-D DACs.
 

JackD201

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My impression of most S-D Dacs I've heard are that they are smooth but dull and lifeless. Of course I have no way of knowing if it was because of the DACs, the output stages or something else about them altogether.
 

mep

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I conjecture that if you listened to RB using a multibit DAC you'd hear even more bass punch than on your Mytek. But then you'd likely lose the refinement at the top which you love about DSD.

If I heard a single bit more of bass punch with RB than I'm hearing now with the Mytek, I couldn't take it. It's already on the hairy edge of being too much. I've talked before about the Shelby Lynne Just a Little Lovin bass being way over blown IMO and those that don't hear it I suspect have speakers that don't go much below 50 Hz. If you are truly flat to at least 30 Hz, I think you will know what I'm talking about.
 

opus111

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I'm curious about your opinion of the MSB Diamond DACs. They are multibit (AFAIK), and they do DSD now. I haven't seen further details on this, so I don't know if they do it natively or convert it on the fly to PCM. But the results are good, better than playing the same DSD pre-converted to PCM using software.

I've not seen any technical descriptions of what MSB are doing 'under the hood' so to speak so don't have much to go on. I have though been swayed by a measurement report the Bruno Putzeys left in a thread on DIYA where he said that MSB seem to be using a 'floating point' architecture in the particular DAC he measured. This was going back a few years so its possible they've changed how they do things now, but he said the DAC only managed around 13bit resolution but that resolution tracked the signal level. If anyone knows anywhere I can go where their technical details are revealed, I'd be keen to follow it up. From what Bruno says it looks to me that MSB designed their DAC to ace one particular test measurement - that of linearity vs input signal level. That turns out to be the measurement I noticed they feature on their website - with a favourable comparison against the BB PCM1704.
 

LL21

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I've not seen any technical descriptions of what MSB are doing 'under the hood' so to speak so don't have much to go on. I have though been swayed by a measurement report the Bruno Putzeys left in a thread on DIYA where he said that MSB seem to be using a 'floating point' architecture in the particular DAC he measured. This was going back a few years so its possible they've changed how they do things now, but he said the DAC only managed around 13bit resolution but that resolution tracked the signal level. If anyone knows anywhere I can go where their technical details are revealed, I'd be keen to follow it up. From what Bruno says it looks to me that MSB designed their DAC to ace one particular test measurement - that of linearity vs input signal level. That turns out to be the measurement I noticed they feature on their website - with a favourable comparison against the BB PCM1704.

thanks as always Opus111! Perhaps Stereophile Sept 2012? John Atkinson did the measurements i think. Diamond Platinum IV?
 

c1ferrari

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Mark,

We recorded a friend playing flamenco guitar to DSD. The sole objective of this recording was to ascertain the operational status of the mic --> mic pre --> DSD recorder. If you're interested, I'll send it to you; however, it's a large file.

I haven't forgotten about the analog tape recording... :D
 

mep

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Mark,

We recorded a friend playing flamenco guitar to DSD. The sole objective of this recording was to ascertain the operational status of the mic --> mic pre --> DSD recorder. If you're interested, I'll send it to you; however, it's a large file.

I haven't forgotten about the analog tape recording... :D

Sam-I'm glad you didn't forget me! I believe my email address is listed under my profile to send me the file. If not, mepearson@bluemarble.net
 

c1ferrari

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How does the Mytek 192 compare with the Korg MR2000s playing DSD files?

Hi Micro,

In my limited experience, the Korg MR-2000S acquits itself well wrt A/D conversion. It is the D/A converter that warrants attention.
With that proviso, I would recommend the unit for anyone that wishes to record to 2-track DSD.
I'll probably invest in an external DSD D/A converter :cool:
 

c1ferrari

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Sam-I'm glad you didn't forget me! I believe my email address is listed under my profile to send me the file. If not, mepearson@bluemarble.net

OK, Mark...I'll send it to you!

Just returned from our Fall Foliage 2012 Tour this a.m. :)
I'll hook-up the external HD...do you have a place where I can upload the file? I think it's ~ 1 GB :eek:
 

mep

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Sam-Send me a PM with your address and I will send you a jump stick.
 

c1ferrari

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Sam-Send me a PM with your address and I will send you a jump stick.

Done -- though, not really sure what a "jump stick" is, hehe :confused:
 

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