Event at Goodwin's High End: Computer Audio and dCS Rossini DAC

[Purite Audio]

Not quite the right way round, if you feel you hear a difference between two components, you should compare them unsighted to remove bias, if you can still pick a difference ,then you look for the measurement that corroborates your finding.
Keith.

 

[jfrech]

I'm sorry. Yes indeed.

All of my friends that have tried the Rossini DAC so far report it sounds better via its Ethernet input.

The Rossini has a upgraded networking capabilities vs the Vivaldi upsampler. It accepts higher resolution and knowing dCS I bet it sounds better and it would not surprise if a update is coming soon for Vivaldi. Not sure if this is software or hardware related. So Elberoth's friends maybe onto something...I've always respected his posts.

 

[PeterA]

Not quite the right way round, if you feel you hear a difference between two components, you should compare them unsighted to remove bias, if you can still pick a difference ,then you look for the measurement that corroborates your finding.
Keith.

What if measurements don't show a difference, but you hear a difference under unsighted, controlled conditions? Do you except this as a possibility?

 

[Purite Audio]

What if measurements don't show a difference, but you hear a difference under unsighted, controlled conditions? Do you except this as a possibility?

Then we are measuring the wrong thing.
Keith.

 

[jfrech]

Not quite the right way round, if you feel you hear a difference between two components, you should compare them unsighted to remove bias, if you can still pick a difference ,then you look for the measurement that corroborates your finding.
Keith.

"You should" Why? Some of us can clearly hear a difference and why waste time printing it out on a graph to show someone else that you can measure what you heard. I'm happy with my decisions based on my ears....and don't need to prove that to others. If they don't trust my opinions based on my ears as I type things on posts...then it's up to them to find what ever proof they need.

I also find it curious that usually these "measurement" types aren't making a buying decision on the component that started the whole thread....

 

[PeterA]

Not quite the right way round, if you feel you hear a difference between two components, you should compare them unsighted to remove bias, if you can still pick a difference ,then you look for the measurement that corroborates your finding.
Keith.

And then if you still can't get the measurement to corroborate the differences you are hearing, you are TOLD that you measured the wrong thing. Perhaps measurements just can't tell you everything yet. Or the measurements are flawed, or the unsighted testing conditions are flawed, or something else.

Though I appreciate full well the role of measurements in the design process and for certain aspects of system set up, I'm with jfrech, listening is the way I make my purchase decisions.

Incidentally, Al M., MadFloyd, Ack and I are all going to Goodwins today to hear the new Magico S7. Perhaps we will hear the Rossini DAC and hopefully their Basis turntable.

 

[Purite Audio]

"You should" Why? Some of us can clearly hear a difference and why waste time printing it out on a graph to show someone else that you can measure what you heard. I'm happy with my decisions based on my ears....and don't need to prove that to others. If they don't trust my opinions based on my ears as I type things on posts...then it's up to them to find what ever proof they need.

I also find it curious that usually these "measurement" types aren't making a buying decision on the component that started the whole thread....

I completely understand how difficult it is to come to terms with the fact that your ears are fallible , unfortunately they cannot be trusted.
Unsighted comparison removes the sighted bias, I am reminded of the contributor to this very forum who was absolutely certain that he could 'pick' his cables, unsighted he couldn't!
Keith.

 

[audioguy]

I always find these discussions fascinating. They are no different than those between Atheist and Theist or Democrat and Republican or ......... Virtually NO ONE ever changes their mind and switches sides as a result of these discussions but the discussions continue, nonetheless. I am (for those purchases where it is practical) of the blind comparison camp as I am convinced of my own expectation bias and have had it clearly demonstrated to me more than once (as the initial part of the blind test). As a result, within the limits of my budget, I have a system I am satisfied with and have saved some substantial amount of money (on some components) in the process of assembling it. Others choose to trust their ears (or those of someone else they trust). It's their money; their system; their bragging rights.

Since at least one of the objectives (denied by many) of this hobby is being satisfied with the actual equipment we own (I have serious doubts about the veracity of the statement: "It's ALL about the music"), then regardless of why or how we chose a component, we have satisfied at least that objective.

PS. To be upfront, I do not make all of my purchase decisions based on blind tests as it is not even practical in some cases. Some components I actually never heard prior to buying them: (1) My d-sonic amp (It did have a 30 day return policy), but I based my decision on product reviews and other folks opinions; (2) my Oppo Blu Ray player (also had a 30 day return policy), and (3) my Power Conditioner. The two most recent blind test decisions I made were on the Datasat RS20i and my music server. Both serious eye openers.

 

[bonzo75]

And then if you still can't get the measurement to corroborate the differences you are hearing, you are TOLD that you measured the wrong thing. Perhaps measurements just can't tell you everything yet. Or the measurements are flawed, or the unsighted testing conditions are flawed, or something else.

Though I appreciate full well the role of measurements in the design process and for certain aspects of system set up, I'm with jfrech, listening is the way I make my purchase decisions.

Incidentally, Al M., MadFloyd, Ack and I are all going to Goodwins today to hear the new Magico S7. Perhaps we will hear the Rossini DAC and hopefully their Basis turntable.

Goodwins recently sold of a SPJ la luce for a customer. If you could get his impressions of that compared to basis, kuzma xl4, or kronos, let me know as I head the spj and was very impressed.

 

[Steve Williams]

if you can still pick a difference ,then you look for the measurement that corroborates your finding.

If one can still pick the difference by his ears unsighted, give me good reason why he now needs measurements to corroborate his findings

 

[amirm]

If one can still pick the difference by his ears unsighted, give me good reason why he now needs measurements to corroborate his findings

Because his testing may be flawed. Simple example: levels not matching. This will instantly create preference by itself. Measurements easily show this flaw in the test.

 

[amirm]

BTW, the above example happened to me a few weeks ago. I was comparing DSD conversion on the fly to PCM using Roon to the same file having been converted to PCM by the distributor. The DSD conversion on the fly sounded better. I then look in the settings and I see that Roon by default has a 6 dB boost for DSD to PCM conversion! By ear I adjusted this and the right number was around 3 or 4 db boost. Once there, the difference that I heard vanished. At least it did so in my casual testing.

I must say it was not obvious at all that the DSD was louder until I paid particular attention to it. It would have been easily possible to think the levels must be the same and are the same and proceed to trust the listening test results.

How many people who have developed a preference for DSD have checked levels this way? I suspect many have not.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Agreed. Do we even know if high end reviewers correct for equal volume level in any published subjective comparisons? They never, ever say in the mags or online reviews. I suspect some do, but some don't, especially those who are uncomfortable with or downright hostile to measurements of any kind. Their ears, I suppose, can adjust for level mismatch. Yeah, right.

As you suggest, the slightly louder of two setups will almost always win the day, preference-wise. I agree that it might be a bogus factor in the preference of DSD over PCM in many "purist" minds, but unfortunately also in many positive reviews of many pieces of audio equipment in comparison to others.

 

[Purite Audio]

Agreed. Do we even know if high end reviewers correct for equal volume level in any published subjective comparisons? They never, ever say in the mags or online reviews. I suspect some do, but some don't, especially those who are uncomfortable with or downright hostile to measurements of any kind. Their ears, I suppose, can adjust for level mismatch. Yeah, right.

As you suggest, the slightly louder of two setups will almost always win the day, preference-wise. I agree that it might be a bogus factor in the preference of DSD over PCM in many "purist" minds, but unfortunately also in many positive reviews of many pieces of audio equipment in comparison to others.

An engineer friend wrote this 'how to level match' explanation.
http://www.puriteaudio.co.uk/blog?page=2
As you say without accurate level matching comparisons are often skewed in favour of the loudest.
Keith.

 

[jfrech]

Any chance we can move the measurement topics/opinions to a thread in that forum?

This thread is about dCS Rossini and computer audio. I'm curious what PeterA, Madfloyd and others heard at Goodwin's yesterday...

 

[Barry2013]

Any chance we can move the measurement topics/opinions to a thread in that forum?

This thread is about dCS Rossini and computer audio. I'm curious what PeterA, Madfloyd and others heard at Goodwin's yesterday...

Seconded

 

[PeterA]

As you suggest, the slightly louder of two setups will almost always win the day, preference-wise. I agree that it might be a bogus factor in the preference of DSD over PCM in many "purist" minds, but unfortunately also in many positive reviews of many pieces of audio equipment in comparison to others.

This is not my experience. I have been in a few situations when auditioning a system I prefer it less loud. Fairly recently an audio buddy and I listened to a third friend's system. The host plays music for us, we listened for a few minutes, and then we usually turned down the volume slightly because we thought it sounded better that way. Sometimes slightly louder volume overloads the room, the system's distortions become more noticeable, or high frequencies become too harsh etc. Slightly louder volume is not almost always preferred in my experience.

I do agree that when doing direct comparisons, volume levels should be fairly closely matched, but in practice, that is not always so easy to achieve with dynamic music. It is easy to be off my a couple of dB.

 

[PeterA]

Any chance we can move the measurement topics/opinions to a thread in that forum?

This thread is about dCS Rossini and computer audio. I'm curious what PeterA, Madfloyd and others heard at Goodwin's yesterday...

We heard a demonstration of the Magico S7 and Ssubs driven by top of the line Spectral, MIT and the Vivaldi stack all playing CD. It was an extremely good demonstration set up by Peter Mackey, Magico's VP of Global sales and marketing. Unfortunately, we did not compare the Rossini DAC to the Vivaldi, but I can say, that my opinion of the potential of Redbook CD has been forever changed. It was simply outstanding. There is too much to write about now, so I may add something to the S7 thread and I suspect Al M. will write something about the dCS gear here or somewhere else. Suffice it to say, I was extremely impressed by the overall sound of the system.

 

[jfrech]

We heard a demonstration of the Magico S7 and Ssubs driven by top of the line Spectral, MIT and the Vivaldi stack all playing CD. It was an extremely good demonstration set up by Peter Mackey, Magico's VP of Global sales and marketing. Unfortunately, we did not compare the Rossini DAC to the Vivaldi, but I can say, that my opinion of the potential of Redbook CD has been forever changed. It was simply outstanding. There is too much to write about now, so I may add something to the S7 thread and I suspect Al M. will write something about the dCS gear here or somewhere else. Suffice it to say, I was extremely impressed by the overall sound of the system.

The Vivaldi Upsampler (with the rest of the Vivaldi stack) changed my opinion on Redbook too. Frankly I hadn't really listened to redbook in years...but do have a pretty good collection. While I still think my vinyl is best overall, the Vivaldi stack has me more choosing what recording I want to listen to vs what format. I'm happy with vinyl, SACD and now redbook...(and some hi res downloads)

Thanks for posting Peter !

 

[PeterA]

The Vivaldi Upsampler (with the rest of the Vivaldi stack) changed my opinion on Redbook too. Frankly I hadn't really listened to redbook in years...but do have a pretty good collection. While I still think my vinyl is best overall, the Vivaldi stack has me more choosing what recording I want to listen to vs what format. I'm happy with vinyl, SACD and now redbook...(and some hi res downloads)

Thanks for posting Peter !

John, I'm sure there will be more written about this event in the next few days. MadFloyd, Ack, Al. M, and I were all there. It was a lot to digest, but I've never listened to digital for three hours straight and not felt some fatigue. I could have listened for many more hours. In fact, and I'm shocked to be thinking this now, it was perhaps the best demo I've ever had, with any format, in Goodwin's large room. It was that good.