Event at Goodwin's High End: Computer Audio and dCS Rossini DAC

[caseyse]

Not sure if this is software or hardware related.

Hardware. Look for the "Plus"

 

[thedudeabides]

Any chance we can move the measurement topics/opinions to a thread in that forum?

This thread is about dCS Rossini and computer audio. I'm curious what PeterA, Madfloyd and others heard at Goodwin's yesterday...

Isn't that why that forum was created? To give the "O" crowd a place for their measurements / conclusions and minimize said group from disrupting subjective based threads. The specific rules for that forum clearly state that no folks who have "subjective" opinions need apply.

I assume it applies to all members including Amir.

 

[amirm]

Isn't that why that forum was created? To give the "O" crowd a place for their measurements / conclusions and minimize said group from disrupting subjective based threads. The specific rules for that forum clearly state that no folks who have "subjective" opinions need apply.

I assume it applies to all members including Amir.

There is a lot of misconceptions in what you say. Everyone is welcome in the measurement forum, subjectivists or objectivists. The rules apply to the arguments being made there, not attendance.

And in no way does the creation of that forum means the exclusion of objectivist views elsewhere in the forum. That said, majority of subjective threads in the forum are purely attended by subjectivists.

In this thread the OP reported on specific technical merits of some products like Jitterbug from manufacturer and so there has been a discussion on those. It is not off-topic nor is it against the forum rules. It gives a chance to have a discussion about these technologies without the limits that are in place in the measurement forum.

 

[microstrip]

We heard a demonstration of the Magico S7 and Ssubs driven by top of the line Spectral, MIT and the Vivaldi stack all playing CD. It was an extremely good demonstration set up by Peter Mackey, Magico's VP of Global sales and marketing. Unfortunately, we did not compare the Rossini DAC to the Vivaldi, but I can say, that my opinion of the potential of Redbook CD has been forever changed. It was simply outstanding. There is too much to write about now, so I may add something to the S7 thread and I suspect Al M. will write something about the dCS gear here or somewhere else. Suffice it to say, I was extremely impressed by the overall sound of the system.

As far as I could understand the ring DAC from the Rossini is not the same of Vivaldi. Which components of the Rossini stack were being used?

 

[Al M.]

In this thread the OP reported on specific technical merits of some products like Jitterbug from manufacturer and so there has been a discussion on those. It is not off-topic nor is it against the forum rules. It gives a chance to have a discussion about these technologies without the limits that are in place in the measurement forum.

As the OP I confirm your viewpoint, Amir. The measurement issue is completely on-topic on this thread.

However, with respect to this we should not stray too far from the original issues raised -- this thread should not degrade into a general philosophical discussion about objectivst vs. subjectivist views.

 

[Al M.]

As far as I could understand the ring DAC from the Rossini is not the same of Vivaldi. Which components of the Rossini stack were being used?

The Rossini DAC was not used at all. The entire 4-box Vivaldi stack was in action, and it was as spectacular as Peter A. reported -- an entirely new and supreme level of digital playback over anything we had ever heard before. I had heard the Rossini of course, one week earlier, but first I didn't sit in a good spot, and second there wasn't much music played where I would have been able to hear the DAC's superiority over other digital playback (no classical was played, and no jazz either).

I may add some more impressions about the Vivaldi experience later.

 

[amirm]

As the OP I confirm your viewpoint, Amir. The measurement issue is completely on-topic on this thread.

However, with respect to this we should not stray too far from the original issues raised -- this thread should not degrade into a general philosophical discussion about objectivst vs. subjectivist views.

For sure.

 

[Steve Silberman]

Hello Al -

Thank you for attending the event and for the nice write up. I hope it was worth your time. Just a couple of follow up thoughts - There are devices other than the 30k (plus) analyzer from Tektronics, it just so happens that's the unit Gordon settled on. for us, this unit has been an essential tool, something of an everyday workhorse in our stable of test equipment. Also, I'd like to add a correction regarding the Baetis music server. Because this unit runs on a Windows operating system it will allow it's user(s) access to the internet, something I [personally] fine essential. This was something of an oversight on my part.

Enjoy the rest of your year. Peace and happiness to everyone,

Steve Silberman

 

[thedudeabides]

There is a lot of misconceptions in what you say.

Perhaps. Suffice to say, I respectfully disagree.

Best

 

[microstrip]

The Rossini DAC was not used at all. The entire 4-box Vivaldi stack was in action, and it was as spectacular as Peter A. reported -- an entirely new and supreme level of digital playback over anything we had ever heard before. I had heard the Rossini of course, one week earlier, but first I didn't sit in a good spot, and second there wasn't much music played where I would have been able to hear the DAC's superiority over other digital playback (no classical was played, and no jazz either).

I may add some more impressions about the Vivaldi experience later.

Thanks - I see it was my mistake, induced by the thread tittle. If it was the first time you listened to the complete Vivaldi stack it should have been a shock. I was really impressed the very few times I listened to it, particularly in a large room I have large experience. One of those foolish moments when the idea of selling all your system and starting again from zero with a Vivaldi is a temptation...

I regret I have never been able to listen to a Vivaldi stack fully wired with Transparent REF XL cables - two Vivaldi owners I know about say it really makes a difference and bought the complete loom.

 

[Al M.]

Hello Al -

Thank you for attending the event and for the nice write up. I hope it was worth your time. Just a couple of follow up thoughts - There are devices other than the 30k (plus) analyzer from Tektronics, it just so happens that's the unit Gordon settled on. for us, this unit has been an essential tool, something of an everyday workhorse in our stable of test equipment. Also, I'd like to add a correction regarding the Baetis music server. Because this unit runs on a Windows operating system it will allow it's user(s) access to the internet, something I [personally] fine essential. This was something of an oversight on my part.

Enjoy the rest of your year. Peace and happiness to everyone,

Steve Silberman

Hi Steve,

thank you for your feedback. I did learn a lot, so it was definitely worth my time -- thank you very much!

Al

 

[c1ferrari]

Thanks to all who've contributed. I'm visiting family over the Winter Holiday and
am considering a visit to this dealer. Looking forward to learning more from the thread.

 

[Al M.]

If I might summarize the new digital experience with the Vivaldi stack through the outstanding system that we heard at Goodwin's it would be mainly the following two items on a much higher level than I ever heard before from digital:

1) tonal density
2) timbral micro-resolution

These two together deliver a rather realistic timbral richness, close to what I have thus far only heard from top analog. And all that was just from CD, either Redbook CD or HDCD. No 'hi-res'.

Solo violin in the Reference Recordings HDCD of Sait Saens' Danse Macabre was very convincing, but so was orchestral string sound, french horns etc.

Interestingly, the high frequency resolution from CD was just outstanding, even though also HDCD is bound by the 44.1 kHz sampling limit. At one point Peter A. who sat behind me tapped on my shoulder and said "I have never heard such triangles from digital". He also found a cymbal crash that I had not paid attention to very convincing in its sound and decay through the recorded hall (decay of sound overall was on a top level too). The transparency of sound came close to the best analog I have heard. There was also no high-frequency fatigue as Peter pointed out. It almost appears that the application of the Nyquist theorem to audio was correct all along, we just have never before heard an audible result that would do its theoretical outcome justice.

***

In that large room at Goodwin's the soundstage was just huge. It was fully 3-D, with palpable, layered and precise imaging, great decay and emergence of instrumental sound out of silence as you would hear in a concert hall. It was the best soundstage that I have ever heard. It seemed as good from Redbook CD as it was from HDCD.

If the Rossini Player with clock would get 3/4 of the way where the sound of the Vivaldi stack was I'd be very happy.

 

[Barry2013]

Thank you for that Al.
Really bears out many other reports on the Vivaldi.
As you say if the Rossini gets anywhere near to that it will be an attractive buy.

 

[MadFloyd]

I was also at the event and concur with Al M.'s descriptions.

Al, I'm curious - having heard the Vivaldi and the Rossini within a short time span, can you compare them? Were the other electronics and speakers the same?

 

[Al M.]

I was also at the event and concur with Al M.'s descriptions.

Al, I'm curious - having heard the Vivaldi and the Rossini within a short time span, can you compare them? Were the other electronics and speakers the same?

Hi Ian,

yes, that was an impressive event, wasn't it? I am glad we all went.

Alas, I cannot compare the Rossini, see this post. The electronics there were Simaudio amplification and Rockport Cygnus speakers.

I plan to audition the Rossini DAC soon.

 

[PeterA]

If I might summarize the new digital experience with the Vivaldi stack through the outstanding system that we heard at Goodwin's it would be mainly the following two items on a much higher level than I ever heard before from digital:

1) tonal density
2) timbral micro-resolution

These two together deliver a rather realistic timbral richness, close to what I have thus far only heard from top analog. And all that was just from CD, either Redbook CD or HDCD. No 'hi-res'.

Solo violin in the Reference Recordings HDCD of Sait Saens' Danse Macabre was very convincing, but so was orchestral string sound, french horns etc.

Interestingly, the high frequency resolution from CD was just outstanding, even though also HDCD is bound by the 44.1 kHz sampling limit. At one point Peter A. who sat behind me tapped on my shoulder and said "I have never heard such triangles from digital". He also found a cymbal crash that I had not paid attention to very convincing in its sound and decay through the recorded hall (decay of sound overall was on a top level too). The transparency of sound came close to the best analog I have heard. There was also no high-frequency fatigue as Peter pointed out. It almost appears that the application of the Nyquist theorem to audio was correct all along, we just have never before heard an audible result that would do its theoretical outcome justice.

***

In that large room at Goodwin's the soundstage was just huge. It was fully 3-D, with palpable, layered and precise imaging, great decay and emergence of instrumental sound out of silence as you would hear in a concert hall. It was the best soundstage that I have ever heard. It seemed as good from Redbook CD as it was from HDCD.

If the Rossini Player with clock would get 3/4 of the way where the sound of the Vivaldi stack was I'd be very happy.

I agree with these comments. I thought it was best digitally sourced demo that I have ever heard. However, I can not confidently separate what the Vivaldi stack contributed to the overall sound relative to the other components. I can say that there was a great deal of resolution, and in my experience, that depends in large part on whether or not the source can extract that information from the medium, in this case, CD. Once extracted, the Spectral gear, MIT cables and Magico S7 and S Subs did a superb job of transforming those bits into convincing and natural sounding music. I'm sure the large Goodwin's demo room also played its part.

I was really struck by the overall resolution in general and the ultra clean and pure sound in particular. Clarity is above all what I identify with live orchestral music. This demo came very close to the clarity I hear live. There was very little distortion or artifacts coloring the sound. It was very pure and clean. Perhaps this was the high level of digital, SS and low distortion speakers that these three companies are famous for, or it was something else, but the combination worked very well together.

I would add that in addition to the tonal density and timbral resolution that Al mentions, I was really struck by the realistic portrayal of space, soundstaging and imaging. The individual instruments in the orchestras in particular were very cleanly, and spatially represented. The entire front half of the room, into the deepest two corners, was filled with instruments much like at a symphony hall, though it obviously was smaller in scale. The key thing was though, that the instruments were proportionally correctly scaled relative to each other and the space. And also very impressive was how the sound emerged from the virtual space (speakers actually, but stereo mechanism) to fill the rest of the listening room. This aspect of reproduction, namely the distinction between the instrument producing the sound and that sound leaving its origins to fill the surrounding space is something which few systems in my experience can manage to do convincingly.

The overall sound was very natural with little hint that it was either digital or produced by some mechanical audio system. As the system improved during the demonstration period, it really made me forget that I was hearing a system and the music took over. Very unique for a dealer demo in my experience.

Edit: I forgot to mention the role of the S Subs. They must too have contributed greatly to the overall sense of space and correct soundstaging and imaging. The integration between them and the main S7 speakers was superb.

 

[jfrech]

If I might summarize the new digital experience with the Vivaldi stack through the outstanding system that we heard at Goodwin's it would be mainly the following two items on a much higher level than I ever heard before from digital:

1) tonal density
2) timbral micro-resolution

These two together deliver a rather realistic timbral richness, close to what I have thus far only heard from top analog. And all that was just from CD, either Redbook CD or HDCD. No 'hi-res'.

Solo violin in the Reference Recordings HDCD of Sait Saens' Danse Macabre was very convincing, but so was orchestral string sound, french horns etc.

Interestingly, the high frequency resolution from CD was just outstanding, even though also HDCD is bound by the 44.1 kHz sampling limit. At one point Peter A. who sat behind me tapped on my shoulder and said "I have never heard such triangles from digital". He also found a cymbal crash that I had not paid attention to very convincing in its sound and decay through the recorded hall (decay of sound overall was on a top level too). The transparency of sound came close to the best analog I have heard. There was also no high-frequency fatigue as Peter pointed out. It almost appears that the application of the Nyquist theorem to audio was correct all along, we just have never before heard an audible result that would do its theoretical outcome justice.

***

In that large room at Goodwin's the soundstage was just huge. It was fully 3-D, with palpable, layered and precise imaging, great decay and emergence of instrumental sound out of silence as you would hear in a concert hall. It was the best soundstage that I have ever heard. It seemed as good from Redbook CD as it was from HDCD.

If the Rossini Player with clock would get 3/4 of the way where the sound of the Vivaldi stack was I'd be very happy.

Excellent report and thank you. Curious why no hi res or SACD? Was it just the recordings you had brought?

 

[Al M.]

Excellent report and thank you. Curious why no hi res or SACD? Was it just the recordings you had brought?

You're welcome John, and congratulations on such superb digital playback that you have! I am glad that as a Vivaldi owner you appear to concur with my thoughts which have been aptly expanded upon by Peter.

The Magico rep who lead the demo of the S7 speakers brought only Redbook CDs and HDCDs. I wish I had brought some of my own music, but I didn't think I would have been able to play it. It turns out I could have, sticking around after most people had left…but it would have been just Redbook CDs as well, the only digital that I have.

 

[Jim Smith]

Hi Ian,

yes, that was an impressive event, wasn't it? I am glad we all went.

Alas, I cannot compare the Rossini, see this post. The electronics there were Simaudio amplification and Rockport Cygnus speakers.

I plan to audition the Rossini DAC soon.

Please post when you do.

The top dCS has always been the best I have ever experienced, but I cannot justify that amount of expenditure.

Hoping the Rossini comes close. Second best for me has been the Berkeley Ref, so your findings are of unusual relevance - at least to me.