Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne loudspeakers

[DaveyF]

We manufacture the drivers ourselves and the tweeter in our MMMicroOne is more expensive than the tweeter in our $200,000 loudspeaker. These drivers are incredibly well built and I would put them up against anything out there at any price. Also, we design and build our own crossovers.

.

Jtinn, why do you not utilize the more expensive tweeter in your $200K speaker? Just asking..

 

[phillipK]

Mep:

In terms of experience, there is no question about technical experience. Kevin Malmgren has been doing this much longer than Alon. I know when Alon started learning about this and Kevin had already designed and manufactured many products before Alon even thought about speaker manufacturing. That being said, I have nothing against Alon and Magico. I do not agree with their design philosophy and what they charge for their products, but they seem to get away with it.

What’s that got to do with anything? Would you not use the IPhone just because Motorola built phones way before Apple?
If you do not agree with their design philosophy, why did you copy Magico construction techniques? If you know Alon for so long, you probably seen his early design (http://magico.net/Company/Legacy/Legacy_05.php). Does it reminds you of anything?

 

[jtinn]

Jtinn, why do you not utilize the more expensive tweeter in your $200K speaker? Just asking..

Fair enough question Davey. The answer quite simply is the one we use in the MM Series is great in that application and price had nothing to do with what our final choice was.

The tweeter in the MMMicroOne was designed specifically for that loudspeaker.

 

[jtinn]

What’s that got to do with anything? Would you not use the IPhone just because Motorola built phones way before Apple?
If you do not agree with their design philosophy, why did you copy Magico construction techniques? If you know Alon for so long, you probably seen his early design (http://magico.net/Company/Legacy/Legacy_05.php). Does it reminds you of anything?

phillipK: WOW!!!

What's what got to do with anything? Didn't you see mep's question?

That statement could not be more wrong and more irresponsible. Our construction techniques could not be more different. And no, the link you posted does not remind me of anything. How many binding posts is that? Is there a crossover in that speaker?

 

[phillipK]

phillipK: WOW!!!

Our construction techniques could not be more different.

I guess you never stacked cut-out ribs to form an enclosure...

 

[Champ04]

I'm ready to tell you that is not what you said. You made a blanket statement which I quoted that said the U.S. labor rates were many times more higher than anywhere else. Now you have redefined "anywhere" else to anywhere in China.

There was no REdefining. The quote you grab is from point "2" of my original post. It could not be MORE clear, from point "1" that I am relating to China vs. U.S. labor. I apologize for not choosing my words more carefully in point 2. Though I imagined that most people with reading comprehension would note that nothing had changed between points 1 and 2. That I was still talking about China v. U.S. And not that it has any bearing on the real subject matter at all, but it was a poor choice of words on my part.

You regulated the importance of the speaker cabinet third behind the quality of the drivers and the crossover network (I assume you are calling the crossover nestwork "the circuit.") If cabinet design comes in third place with regards to performance when designing and building a speaker, why do companies like Magico, Wilson, and Rockport go through such incredible time and expense to manufacture their cabinets?

Because it STILL matters! Even if it comes behind drivers and circuits, relatively speaking. It's not like these companies you mention are not spending equal+ time on drivers and circuits.
Maybe I should put it this way.... The curve depicting diminishing returns is often quite a bit steeper when it comes to cabinets.

These other comments you made are full of conjecture and opinion and they also raised questions:

Only to you and only because you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

Does anyone besides you really think that the crossover components and the drivers used in the MMMicroOne speakers are anywhere near as expensive as the crossover components and drivers used in the Q1? Does anyone besides you and those involved with EA think there is more collective knowledge and experience in building high-end speakers there than what Magico possesses?

Uh, that would be a yes. Anyone with experience in the area and who knows what they are talking about.
Jtinn was kind enough to clear this up a little bit. But even rudimentary knowledge of what it takes to make drivers plus a little simple math makes it obvious. Even IF the mids in the EA were HALF the cost to make than the one in the Q1 they are still on the same level as far as overall costs go, being that they are two in the EA. But knowing a little something about what it costs to custom make a driver, from scratch, I can be absolutely certain the the drivers in the EA are NOT half the cost of whats in the Q1. Period. Not even close. The drivers in the Q1 are not magically many times more expensive to make, just because Magico fans think they are. And, yes, ANYONE who has knowledge in this area, and a measure of integrity, will agree with me.

For all you know, the crossover components used in the Q1 cost more than the entire MMMicroOne speakers.

I think this is the most important sentence, not only in this argument, but in general. Some people will never get past the cognitive dissonance associated with two simple truths. Cost does not necessarily equal performance. And cost does not necessarily equal value.

I know exactly what crossover components cost to actually make. Even the MOST expensive ones. (Ie. Mundorf, as that is what Magico uses. Though I also know exactly where the cost goes for such brands as Duelund.)
And ALL of my "opinions" are based off of facts and direct knowledge from personally knowing the people who actually design and manufacture crossover parts, even the ridiculously expensive ones.


Mep, you are correct in at least one thing. It does all come down to what you prefer. And if anyone really thinks that the Q1 is vastly superior to the MMMicro1 in performance then they should enjoy those Q1s to their fullest heart content.
But they would be lying to themselves if they discounted the MMMicro1 soley on the basis of cost and thought that the Q1 was simply better designed and with vastly superior parts. Because that just isn't the case.
This is a rare instance. But on paper, with all dollar signs removed, these two speakers are equals. And thats all there is to it.

 

[Champ04]

Champ04: I am sorry if you did not get a response from me, I do not know what happened. I try to respond to each and every email I receive.

No problem, Man!
Sometimes things fall through the cracks. I would have emailed again but I probably got distracted by something else shiny at the time.
No worries though. Thanks for chiming in here.

 

[phillipK]

I can be absolutely certain the the drivers in the EA are NOT half the cost of whats in the Q1. Period. Not even close. The drivers in the Q1 are not magically many times more expensive to make, just because Magico fans think they are. And, yes, ANYONE who has knowledge in this area, and a measure of integrity, will agree with me.

A bit disingenuous in your assertions here. The Q1 driver can easily be MUCH more expensive than the MMM woofer. Just have a look at the difference between Neodymium and Ferrite magnet systems? Someone with your "knowledge" should have picked up on that. How about an SD underhang motor system, with a full copper sleeve around the magnets (Just the copper alone in a Magico driver is probably more expensive than the entire MMM woofer). Not to mention the titanium former and yes , the Nanotech cone (that you, apparently, can build in your garage). Beryllium tweeters vs. an air motion (again, look at price of plastic vs. Beryllium, and/or Neodymium vs. Ferrite). These kind of attributes, will results in better performance if use properly. There is a reason they are more costly.

 

[jtinn]

I guess you never stacked cut-out ribs to form an enclosure...

Interesting, but so did TAD, Kharma and countless others way before Magico. What does that mean? Magico makes a six sided box, does that mean they use the same construction techniques as Koss or Bose? They use drivers and wire too. Wow, you really scooped that one. Our construction techniques are far more advanced than what I see in those pictures.

I do not even know if that picture shows a product that was even released. It is possible, I think their product life cycle is very short. I may have blinked and missed it.

phillipK, since you are such a Magico fan, I have a pair of Q7's that I have been trying to sell for months at well below dealer's cost, which no one seems to want. Do you have more dollars than sense?

 

[jtinn]

No problem, Man!
Sometimes things fall through the cracks. I would have emailed again but I probably got distracted by something else shiny at the time.
No worries though. Thanks for chiming in here.

Please call anytime and again my apologies.

 

[Champ04]

phillipk,
I'm fully aware of all the differences. And I know how all of the differences impact the final cost. The Magico driver is, no doubt, more expensive than the MMM1. But there is no way on earth that one Magico driver is ten times the cost of two EA driver.

Your (unfounded) assertion that I made my carbon based drivers in my "garage" makes it clear that you don't think I know what I'm talking about. Further, I imagine you also don't think I've actually done it.
That doesn't bother me. I don't need the approval of some faceless person on a random internet forum.
But your claim that the copper sleeve on the Magico is, alone, more expensive than the entire EA driver means you have no idea what the cost is to make a ceramic cone nor how easy it actually is to make a copper sleave. It also means that I am certain that you don't know what you are talking about.

So, I would say we are at an impass. Only..... I don't actually care enough for it to matter. Go ahead and enjoy the Magicos. Absoutely nothing wrong with that.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have not heard any of the specific models being discussed here , namely the Magico Q1 or the EA MMicro (or any Evo Acoustcs Speakers for that matter) .. One thing is however clear:Audiophiles continue to equate price with performance.

With such a widespread and strongly ingrained mental reflex, no wonder High End manufacturers are continuously increasing their prices with each "updates" or/and "new" version ...

 

[mep]

A bit disingenuous in your assertions here. The Q1 driver can easily be MUCH more expensive than the MMM woofer. Just have a look at the difference between Neodymium and Ferrite magnet systems? Someone with your "knowledge" should have picked up on that. How about an SD underhang motor system, with a full copper sleeve around the magnets (Just the copper alone in a Magico driver is probably more expensive than the entire MMM woofer). Not to mention the titanium former and yes , the Nanotech cone (that you, apparently, can build in your garage). Beryllium tweeters vs. an air motion (again, look at price of plastic vs. Beryllium, and/or Neodymium vs. Ferrite). These kind of attributes, will results in better performance if use properly. There is a reason they are more costly.

Yeah, but Chump04 said copper sleeves were easy to make without addressing the expense of the copper. I don't remember anyone saying it was hard to form a copper sleeve, just that copper is expensive. He didn't address the cost of the magnets.

 

[phillipK]

phillipK, since you are such a Magico fan, I have a pair of Q7's that I have been trying to sell for months at well below dealer's cost, which no one seems to want. Do you have more dollars than sense?

A strange comment form someone who is trying to sell something...

 

[mep]

A strange comment form someone who is trying to sell something...

You have to admit it's brilliant marketing. JTinn has a pair of Magico Q7 speakers that several reviewers have touted as being among the world's best speakers if not the best. JTinn is offering them for sale at below dealer cost and yet no one is making an offer to buy them.

 

[phillipK]

You have to admit it's brilliant marketing. JTinn has a pair of Magico Q7 speakers that several reviewers have touted as being among the world's best speakers if not the best. JTinn is offering them for sale at below dealer cost and yet no one is making an offer to buy them.

Who would pay a $100K for used speakers sold by an outfit who cannot support them?? Besides, I doubt Tinn wants to sell them, like you said, he is a “talented marketer”. But I am doubtful to the outcome of such schemes. According to the local distributor, Magico sold over 100 pairs of Q7. If you want one, EDT is Nov. Whatever Tinn is doing, does not seems to effect Magico sales, maybe the opposite.

 

[jtinn]

You have to admit it's brilliant marketing. JTinn has a pair of Magico Q7 speakers that several reviewers have touted as being among the world's best speakers if not the best. JTinn is offering them for sale at below dealer cost and yet no one is making an offer to buy them.

That is correct and they were traded in after the customer heard the MMMicroOnes side by side with them. Brilliant marketing... not really. Truth... yes.

 

[mep]

That is correct and they were traded in after the customer heard the MMMicroOnes side by side with them. Brilliant marketing... not really. Truth... yes.

JTinn-I think it's both. You have a customer who traded in his Magico Q7 speakers after hearing the MMMicroOnes which is just priceless in terms of marketing and you now find yourself in the position of not being able to unload the Q7 speakers for below dealer cost which infers there must be something wrong with them if people aren't willing to pay less than dealer cost. Other than you having money tied up in the Q7s, I think it's a win-win for you.

 

[jtinn]

Who would pay a $100K for used speakers sold by an outfit who cannot support them?? Besides, I doubt Tinn wants to sell them, like you said, he is a “talented marketer”. But I am doubtful to the outcome of such schemes. According to the local distributor, Magico sold over 100 pairs of Q7. If you want one, EDT is Nov. Whatever Tinn is doing, does not seems to effect Magico sales, maybe the opposite.

Are you saying Magico would not support their own reference product because someone bought it from me? Are you saying the warranty is worth $85,000.00? Are you saying no one would buy them used to save over $85,000.00 over a new pair? Sounds like you think people have too much money to burn.

If you do not think I want the $100k, put your money where your mouth is and buy them. I can't wait to sell them.

Do you always believe everything your told? 100 pairs of speakers at $185,000.00? C'mon, really? Think about that.

Currently EDT for any of our products other than the MMMicroOnes is September/October. I am certain that if a pair of our loudspeakers showed up used at close to 50% off, I would receive a cancellation within a few seconds after the ad went up and I would completely understand.

 

[jtinn]

JTinn-I think it's both. You have a customer who traded in his Magico Q7 speakers after hearing the MMMicroOnes which is just priceless in terms of marketing and you now find yourself in the position of not being able to unload the Q7 speakers for below dealer cost which infers there must be something wrong with them if people aren't willing to pay less than dealer cost. Other than you having money tied up in the Q7s, I think it's a win-win for you.

Having $100,000.00 tied up in a pair of speakers just sitting in the crates is a BIG deal. I could always use $100,000.00