Experience with SME 3009 tonearm?

[PeterA]

I tried one of these, it’s ok if you want a quick basic tool. You will not get as precise alignment compared to SMARTractor or WallyTractor. I’ve probably tried most of the tools out there, I liked Wally the best. If you want one of these I’m sure @PeterA from American Sound can get you one.

I do not know what "from American Sound" means. I can NOT get one of these tools for anyone. Weird comment.

These are excellent tools if one can find one. It is extremely precise and easy to use with no risk of damaging the cantilever. For more information, I suggest anyone interested contact David Karmeli directly.

 

[Adcc]

Thanks for the info.

 

[djsina2]

I do not know what "from American Sound" means. I can NOT get one of these tools for anyone. Weird comment.

These are excellent tools if one can find one. It is extremely precise and easy to use with no risk of damaging the cantilever. For more information, I suggest anyone interested contact David Karmeli directly.

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“Extremely precise”… we probably have different definitions of that. Not saying you can’t get ok results but it is not a precise measuring tool. Anyone can see that.

 

[Adcc]

Thank you

 

[Maril555]

“Extremely precise”… we probably have different definitions of that. Not saying you can’t get ok results but it is not a precise measuring tool. Anyone can see that.

May I ask why do you think it's not precise enough?

 

[djsina2]

May I ask why do you think it's not precise enough?

Up to the user to decide if it’s enough. I’m just saying it’s not a precise alignment tool, which is fact.

 

[Maril555]

Up to the user to decide if it’s enough. I’m just saying it’s not a precise alignment tool, which is fact.

I have been using Feickert protractor myself and had observed DDK using his tool in person, I cannot conclusively state that one is more precise than the other.

 

[djsina2]

I have been using Feickert protractor myself and had observed DDK using his tool in person, I cannot conclusively state that one is more precise than the other.

A few flaws with the ddk tool which makes it not accurate. You use the tool to measure the distance from collet to stylus tip. This is done by inserting your cartridge into this tool. What you measure can vary depending on how you’re holding the tool and how you see it. Then you add .5mm to this inaccurate measurement to simulate the cartridge under VTF load. Now with the tool attached to your tonearm instead of the headshell/cartridge you use this number as your stylus tip when aligning to the grid. At this point you are essentially only aligning the simulated cartridge body to the grid, not the cantilever. This is the biggest fault of the tool.

 

[PeterA]

A few flaws with the ddk tool which makes it not accurate. You use the tool to measure the distance from collet to stylus tip. This is done by inserting your cartridge into this tool. What you measure can vary depending on how you’re holding the tool and how you see it. Then you add .5mm to this inaccurate measurement to simulate the cartridge under VTF load. Now with the tool attached to your tonearm instead of the headshell/cartridge you use this number as your stylus tip when aligning to the grid. At this point you are essentially only aligning the simulated cartridge body to the grid, not the cantilever. This is the biggest fault of the tool.

That is all true. The benefit is that you do not risk damage to the cartridge stylus or cantilever the square sides of the jig are extremely useful in setting up the right alignment. It is very easy and convenient. Other tools may be more precise, but the results should be judged by listening. And you can always put the cartridge back in the tone arm and use the protractor to confirm the alignment so you are not dependent on the jig. I really like not having to use the actual cartridge in the process to avoid possible damage.

Adding that .5 mm is an approximation for dynamic load. How do you account for that with other alignment tools?

 

[Maril555]

A few flaws with the ddk tool which makes it not accurate. You use the tool to measure the distance from collet to stylus tip. This is done by inserting your cartridge into this tool. What you measure can vary depending on how you’re holding the tool and how you see it. Then you add .5mm to this inaccurate measurement to simulate the cartridge under VTF load. Now with the tool attached to your tonearm instead of the headshell/cartridge you use this number as your stylus tip when aligning to the grid. At this point you are essentially only aligning the simulated cartridge body to the grid, not the cantilever. This is the biggest fault of the tool.

Got it, but the same degree of inaccuracy can be observed using the actual stylus. Some cartridges prevent one to see the tip touching a protractor under the optimal angle, therefore allowing for some errors

 

[djsina2]

That is all true. The benefit is that you do not risk damage to the cartridge stylus or cantilever the square sides of the jig are extremely useful in setting up the right alignment. It is very easy and convenient. Other tools may be more precise, but the results should be judged by listening. And you can always put the cartridge back in the tone arm and use the protractor to confirm the alignment so you are not dependent on the jig. I really like not having to use the actual cartridge in the process to avoid possible damage.

Adding that .5 mm is an approximation for dynamic load. How do you account for that with other alignment tools?

Ok, so if you think about it not only is this tool not “extremely precise”, it’s probably the least precise tool there is because it doesn’t align to the cantilever. I’m not aware of any other tool that takes the approach of aligning to the body.

Isn’t that .5mm to make up for no VTF load on the cantilever when taking the distance measurement? If so, any other alignment tool would provide a more accurate number since you’re aligning with the cart on the arm and therefore assuming a load.

 

[djsina2]

Got it, but the same degree of inaccuracy can be observed using the actual stylus. Some cartridges prevent one to see the tip touching a protractor under the optimal angle, therefore allowing for some errors

If you can’t see the stylus and cantilever then yes you have bigger problems. I’ve never encountered this.

 

[PeterA]

Ok, so if you think about it not only is this tool not “extremely precise”, it’s probably the least precise tool there is because it doesn’t align to the cantilever. I’m not aware of any other tool that takes the approach of aligning to the body.

Isn’t that .5mm to make up for no VTF load on the cantilever when taking the distance measurement? If so, any other alignment tool would provide a more accurate number since you’re aligning with the cart on the arm and therefore assuming a load.

No, the .5 mm is the deflection of the cantilever underload plus the drag created by the friction of the spinning record. It’s an approximation. All you have to do is look at the side of a cantilever and turn the platter and watch what happens. Alignment changes.

I used to use the MINT LP protractor. It is excellent, but it was really hard to get a visual on the stylist hitting that arc with some cartridges. there are many alternatives and I understand everyone has a preference. Enjoy whatever tool you like.

 

[djsina2]

No, the .5 mm is the deflection of the cantilever underload plus the drag created by the friction of the spinning record. It’s an approximation. All you have to do is look at the side of a cantilever and turn the platter and watch what happens. Alignment changes.

I used to use the MINT LP protractor. It is excellent, but it was really hard to get a visual on the stylist hitting that arc with some cartridges. there are many alternatives and I understand everyone has a preference. Enjoy whatever tool you like.

Obviously you can’t align with the record spinning and all you would have to do is move your cartridge slightly forward in the headshell if you wanted to account for the drag. The cantilever will deflect under the normal VTF load which other tools accurately capture and ddk estimates.

 

[PeterA]

Obviously you can’t align with the record spinning and all you would have to do is move your cartridge slightly forward in the headshell if you wanted to account for the drag. The cantilever will deflect under the normal VTF load which other tools accurately capture and ddk estimates.

We have all sorts of reports in these very WBF pages about pros coming in and setting up cartridges for members. The forum’s two owners hire others. We could ask Steve W who used to hire ddk and Ron who hired JR about their results. I think we agree that proper set up is important.

 

[tima]

It is a fantasy to say there is a "extremely precise" tool for aligning cartridges. I own DB Systems, Wally, Feickert and the Brakemeir UNI-Pro alignment tool which provides for parallax compensation. Aligning to the cantilever is a visual exercise that is far from "extremely precise".

 

[Maril555]

It is a fantasy to say there is a "extremely precise" tool for aligning cartridges. I own DB Systems, Wally, Feickert and the Brakemeir UNI-Pro alignment tool which provides for parallax compensation. Aligning to the cantilever is a visual exercise that is far from "extremely precise".

Ditto

 

[PeterA]

It is a fantasy to say there is a "extremely precise" tool for aligning cartridges. I own DB Systems, Wally, Feickert and the Brakemeir UNI-Pro alignment tool which provides for parallax compensation. Aligning to the cantilever is a visual exercise that is far from "extremely precise".

Aligning to the cantilever can be good if the stylus is mounted properly in the cantilever, but they are often rotated. The Mint LP protractor made aligning to the cantilever easy but I found the stylist was often slightly rotated so I still had to play around with Zenith by listening. One does the best he can. Like with anything in the hobby, there are different approaches.

 

[thedudeabides]

Up to the user to decide if it’s enough. I’m just saying it’s not a precise alignment tool, which is fact.

If not precise enough, try using a magnifying glass. Just a thought.