First trials of active horn speaker

[Robh3606]

What Beyma did was marry the Ti diaphragm with a Mylar surround to reduce breakup. The highs are quite pure and smooth as a result. Radian does the same with their Aluminum diaphragms.

That makes sense! Most of the "noise and hash" is from the surround. The 435Be and Al, 2435 and 2431's also use a mylar surround and it works.

Rob

 

[Cycling Nut]

I've used a number of horns from A-7, tractrix and other pro hro horns. Materials matter but I think the geometry matters more (CD, exponential, elliptical, etc). Even if you use the best material for a horn and it still has honk or echoes from the geometry, it'll sound sub optimal.
Using a round 10" oblate spheroid waveguide has given me the best results for a much, much reduced horn sound.

 

[morricab]

I've used a number of horns from A-7, tractrix and other pro hro horns. Materials matter but I think the geometry matters more (CD, exponential, elliptical, etc). Even if you use the best material for a horn and it still has honk or echoes from the geometry, it'll sound sub optimal.
Using a round 10" oblate spheroid waveguide has given me the best results for a much, much reduced horn sound.

Agree that the geometry of the horn is most important but hearing the same design with different materials is quite telling as well.

 

[Argonaut]

You should buy what Roy Gregory likes and just link to his reviews to justify

Really !…. As far as I am aware Gregory has yet to critically review or even mention the Symphonia horn transducers in which I have invested my money where my mouth is … unlike yourself ! … Further more I feel no need for justification of my equipment of choice .

 

[Audiohertz2]

I've used a number of horns from A-7, tractrix and other pro hro horns. Materials matter but I think the geometry matters more (CD, exponential, elliptical, etc). Even if you use the best material for a horn and it still has honk or echoes from the geometry, it'll sound sub optimal.
Using a round 10" oblate spheroid waveguide has given me the best results for a much, much reduced horn sound.

Waveguide and not a Horn ...!

 

[Audiohertz2]

They do, not all but many. It has more to do with the horn design but materials play a role and you know this. Why do you think people are using the Klug WOODEN multi-cellular horns as a replacement for the old metal ones? They sound much smoother.

I have been telling no lies so there is no worries about consistency…your trolling, however, is very consistent…

Are there wooden vintage Horns ? Never seen one all i have ever seen or bought were steel ..

 

[ajant]

I have heard two ways of TAD 4003 and of 2001, and I have heard both 4003 and 4001 crossed over to compression driver /dedicated tweeter. And in universum he crosses Radian.950 to 475. I like all approaches, don't really have a choice. The person who has the best Altec I heard prefers no tweeter.

I have found that the difference is not so much due to 16k or 27k or the 40k of ET 703. Some drivers are more nuanced in the violin range, like TAD and Radian and AER over the Altec, and that is where my choice preference for the highs goes, rather than just an increase in frequency

Agreed. Ime the execution matters more than the underlying philosophy; in other words a designer cannot take comfort in the belief that his way is the right way (which is what we all believe, n'est-ce pas?); he STILL has to get right every little thing that matters.



Yup! And in my experience a nuanced top end enables other desirable attributes.

I like a gently-downward-sloping response curve. But ime this sort of curve only works well when the top end is sufficiently nuanced; that is, when you can hear all the little inner details without the top end being loud. If the top end is not articulate then the speaker sounds boring; but if you make the top end louder so that it IS articulate then it's not as rich and warm and inviting and long-term relaxing. So imo an articulate top end is critical to letting you get away with using what I think is the ideal voicing.

Hi guys; thanks for posting these comments. Perhaps you might be able to advise me on the following:

Subject: Radian 745Be + Altec 416-8B: Midrange vs HF Extension. Best Horn for "You Are There" Sound?

Troy Crowe tested my Altec 416s here.

I don’t have enough know-how and my day job affords me no learning time to design the horn/driver EQ and crossover myself, so I thought of shipping my pair of Radian 745NeoBe with 3” diameter diaphragms for Troy to use with these midwoofers and one of these two horns.

https://josephcrowe.com/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn

https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-plans-for-es-290-biradial-horn-horn-no-1670

https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-files-horn-no-1994-es450-biradial-for-jbl-2446-2-throat

Or alternately https://www.athosaudio.com/2021/01/01/tad-th-4001/

I know that some have used the 745Be drivers with passive or active EQ to get extension out to ~ 17kHz, to achieve a two-way system. But is the penalty for getting that extension-using any of these horns-having to cross above what Troy said is the Altec 416’s ideal of 500Hz? That is, would crossing at ~ 700Hz introduce some kind of coloration or other midrange aberrations?

If yes, how much HF extension would I need to sacrifice to cross the RadianBe 3” with the Altecs at 500Hz?

Would I then get a much more natural better sounding midrange?

Lastly, which of the three horns used with the 745Be would most likely deliver a "You Are There", rather than a “They Are Here” sound?

Would the ES290 and the 4001 horns do so equally as well?

 

[Robh3606]

I know that some have used the 745Be drivers with passive or active EQ to get extension out to ~ 17kHz, to achieve a two-way system. But is the penalty for getting that extension-using any of these horns-having to cross above what Troy said is the Altec 416’s ideal of 500Hz? That is, would crossing at ~ 700Hz introduce some kind of coloration or other midrange aberrations?

If yes, how much HF extension would I need to sacrifice to cross the RadianBe 3” with the Altecs at 500Hz?

Would I then get a much more natural better sounding midrange?

Lastly, which of the three horns used with the 745Be would most likely deliver a "You Are There", rather than a “They Are Here” sound?

Would the ES290 and the 4001 horns do so equally as well?

The bottom line is you need measurements with your chosen compression driver on the horn you plan on using. All of this is a guess until you see those measurements. You need on and off axis. You have the right questions but no data to look at and make a decision.

You also need measurements on the woofer in it's chosen enclosure.

Rob

 

[ajant]

The bottom line is you need measurements with your chosen compression driver on the horn you plan on using. All of this is a guess until you see those measurements. You need on and off axis. You have the right questions but no data to look at and make a decision.

You also need measurements on the woofer in it's chosen enclosure.

Rob

For the Altec 416-8B, the measurements Troy Crowe did as shown in the video and in this print version
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed were done in the original 3 cu ft sealed box. They were cloned versions of Gary Dahl's; see his posts at diyaudio.com. They were built by Jim Salk several years before retired. Their relatively small volume restricts LF response but minimizes distortion; Gary's chief concern. For Altec driver specs and T/S parameters, click on them here.

https://greatplainsacoustics.com/pr...Pd0D8ywh-f8SB-cg8ceWTPfYQktQFz_OA3z9xG1Nrqbs2

For the ES290 horn, Troy did off axis plots shown here
https://josephcrowe.com/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn using this driver. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/rcf-nd850-2-0-compression-driver

How might that driver compare to the 745Be? Except for Pierre’s measurements below, these are the most complete and I believe reputable set of measurements I know of. https://audioxpress.com/article/the-745neobe-compression-driver-from-radian-audio

For the Athos TH-4001 horn, which Pierre uses with these Radians, please evaluate Pierre’s and docali’s chats from this page and beyond. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/jmlc-and-yuichi-horns-measurements.395046/page-2

Note on post # 47, where Pierre says about his TAD TD1601B woofers: And I plan on an x-over point somewhere between 725 and 775 as I found this to be a sweet spot for the TAD woofer. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/jmlc-and-yuichi-horns-measurements.395046/page-3

But recall that Troy found that 500Hz is the ideal for crossing the Altecs. Based on what info I’ve presented, would I likely get the best midrange sound quality, off-axis response, sound stage width and depth, and “You Are There” realism by crossing at 500Hz?

However, how much consequent HF response loss and/or other consequences?

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Hi guys; thanks for posting these comments. Perhaps you might be able to advise me on the following:

Subject: Radian 745Be + Altec 416-8B: Midrange vs HF Extension. Best Horn for "You Are There" Sound?

Troy Crowe tested my Altec 416s here.

I don’t have enough know-how and my day job affords me no learning time to design the horn/driver EQ and crossover myself, so I thought of shipping my pair of Radian 745NeoBe with 3” diameter diaphragms for Troy to use with these midwoofers and one of these two horns.

https://josephcrowe.com/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn

https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-plans-for-es-290-biradial-horn-horn-no-1670

https://josephcrowe.com/products/3d-cad-files-horn-no-1994-es450-biradial-for-jbl-2446-2-throat

Or alternately https://www.athosaudio.com/2021/01/01/tad-th-4001/

I know that some have used the 745Be drivers with passive or active EQ to get extension out to ~ 17kHz, to achieve a two-way system. But is the penalty for getting that extension-using any of these horns-having to cross above what Troy said is the Altec 416’s ideal of 500Hz? That is, would crossing at ~ 700Hz introduce some kind of coloration or other midrange aberrations?

If yes, how much HF extension would I need to sacrifice to cross the RadianBe 3” with the Altecs at 500Hz?

Would I then get a much more natural better sounding midrange?

Lastly, which of the three horns used with the 745Be would most likely deliver a "You Are There", rather than a “They Are Here” sound?

Would the ES290 and the 4001 horns do so equally as well?

I have no applicable first-hand experience working with that Radian compression driver, nor with that Altec woofer, nor with any of those horns. If I were in your shoes, I'd follow Troy's advice.