First Watt SIT 5

[sensitivemonk]

I own a First Watt SIT-3, Pass Labs XA30.8, and Pass Labs XA200.5 monos.

I really like the SIT-3. I've gotten a nice taste of it on my Wilson Duette, and have wondered about what more power would be like via the SIT-5, and the fact they would likely be setups I could live with for a very long time (SIT-3 and SIT-5 Monos).

So the main issue is power, and it raises some questions. When I look at the Stereophile review of the SIT-3 and the measurements, it measures 8.4wpc into 8ohms at 1% "clipping". At 3% is when it gets to close to 18w (16.8wpc).

I do not listen loud (why I can consider SIT-3 and SIT-5), but the only reason for me going after the SIT-5 is more power with similar flavor... the actual power and whether it will "deliver" needs to be verified.

I am listening to 86-90db "regular 2-way speakers" but will also have a pair of Line Arrays at 96db. I know the SIT-3 will be great for the Line Arrays.

As for the SIT-5 power claims... and seeing actual measurements for the SIT-3 appear to show quite a bit less than rated - it makes me want to "Trust, but verify".

I have not reached out to Nelson about this as he is extremely generous and I don't want to bother him, unless I have to. That is a hypothetical that will give me an "educated guess" about what I will experience with the SIT-5 monos.

I am trying to get some perspective relative to things I already own. For instance, the SIT-5 power ratings are similar to the XA30.8. The XA30.8 will play much larger than the numbers indicate... it will surprise. Things I wonder about is whether the SIT-5 monos will deliver a similar experience in that regard, or will they run out of power before the XA30.8 will?

I'll note that when I asked a certain someone at Pass about the SIT-5 because of liking the SIT-3... I received a nice reply about the XA25... a guiding hand pointing at something I may wish to, or even should, consider.

Still chewing on all of it...

Excerpt from Stereophile review of SIT-3:

First Watt SIT-3 power amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed a full set of measurements on the First Watt SIT-3, using my Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). Before doing any testing, I preconditioned the SIT-3 by running it at one-third power into 8 ohms for an hour. At the end of that...

www.stereophile.com

View attachment 153942

The XA25 doesn’t sound like the SIT-5. That’s really the only issue with that suggestion.

 

[jmimac351]

The XA25 doesn’t sound like the SIT-5. That’s really the only issue with that suggestion.

Thank you.

I wondered the same thing but I think it was also an example of how there are a lot of FW / Pass options for "Being Happy".

 

[sensitivemonk]

Thank you.

I wondered the same thing but I think it was also an example of how there are a lot of FW / Pass options for "Being Happy".

True enough. It’s interesting to me how much I’ve liked FW and disliked Pass in a truly consistent way

 

[Axel C]

I own a First Watt SIT-3, Pass Labs XA30.8, and Pass Labs XA200.5 monos.

I really like the SIT-3. I've gotten a nice taste of it on my Wilson Duette, and have wondered about what more power would be like via the SIT-5, and the fact they would likely be setups I could live with for a very long time (SIT-3 and SIT-5 Monos).

So the main issue is power, and it raises some questions. When I look at the Stereophile review of the SIT-3 and the measurements, it measures 8.4wpc into 8ohms at 1% "clipping". At 3% is when it gets to close to 18w (16.8wpc).

I do not listen loud (why I can consider SIT-3 and SIT-5), but the only reason for me going after the SIT-5 is more power with similar flavor... the actual power and whether it will "deliver" needs to be verified.

I am listening to 86-90db "regular 2-way speakers" but will also have a pair of Line Arrays at 96db. I know the SIT-3 will be great for the Line Arrays.

As for the SIT-5 power claims... and seeing actual measurements for the SIT-3 appear to show quite a bit less than rated - it makes me want to "Trust, but verify".

I have not reached out to Nelson about this as he is extremely generous and I don't want to bother him, unless I have to. That is a hypothetical that will give me an "educated guess" about what I will experience with the SIT-5 monos.

I am trying to get some perspective relative to things I already own. For instance, the SIT-5 power ratings are similar to the XA30.8. The XA30.8 will play much larger than the numbers indicate... it will surprise. Things I wonder about is whether the SIT-5 monos will deliver a similar experience in that regard, or will they run out of power before the XA30.8 will?

I'll note that when I asked a certain someone at Pass about the SIT-5 because of liking the SIT-3... I received a nice reply about the XA25... a guiding hand pointing at something I may wish to, or even should, consider.

Still chewing on all of it...

Excerpt from Stereophile review of SIT-3:

First Watt SIT-3 power amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed a full set of measurements on the First Watt SIT-3, using my Audio Precision SYS2722 system (see the January 2008 "As We See It"). Before doing any testing, I preconditioned the SIT-3 by running it at one-third power into 8 ohms for an hour. At the end of that...

www.stereophile.com

View attachment 153942

I've also had the SIT3, 4, and 5 which replaced the XA60.8. Initially I thought I'd use the 60.8 when I wanted more power but in six months I've never swapped them back in. As you probably know, the SIT 3 and 5 topology is similar as is their sonic character (to me a least). I also have an array of Wilson speakers including the Duette (1 & 2, which oddly require more power than their bigger siblings). The Duettes are the only speakers that didn't pair well with the J2 - I don't recall ever pairing them with the SIT3 but they are wonderful with the XA25. The SIT5 has A LOT more power than the SIT3 so I suspect they will drive the Duettes to fairly loud/dynamic levels.

 

[jmimac351]

I've also had the SIT3, 4, and 5 which replaced the XA60.8. Initially I thought I'd use the 60.8 when I wanted more power but in six months I've never swapped them back in. As you probably know, the SIT 3 and 5 topology is similar as is their sonic character (to me a least). I also have an array of Wilson speakers including the Duette (1 & 2, which oddly require more power than their bigger siblings). The Duettes are the only speakers that didn't pair well with the J2 - I don't recall ever pairing them with the SIT3 but they are wonderful with the XA25. The SIT5 has A LOT more power than the SIT3 so I suspect they will drive the Duettes to fairly loud/dynamic levels.

Thank you for that feedback. XA60.8 were exactly what I was thinking as a replacement for XA200.5... I just don't need XA200.5, and I acquired them via a trade (because why not?). I was thinking of XA60.8 for the same reason... "for when I need more power". Glad to know the SIT-5 takes care of that!

The Duette are great with SIT-3.

By the way, if you want to try a different crossover on your Duette 1, let me know. I can send to you and you can listen for a bit. It transforms the speaker from FORWARD / "RESOLUTION" to being Balanced, top to bottom. Because the bass becomes better balanced, it sounds like a floor standing speaker... still on a stand. I'm not a "Wilson speaker guy", but I really like the Duette with this network.

I like 8" 2-way speakers, period.

I believe the Alexia and similar Wilson floorstanders drop to 2ohms (or under) at around 100hz(?), something like that. Not the easiest load, and I'm glad the SIT-3 does well with them.

 

[jmimac351]

@Axel C I have located 2 pairs of SIT-5 and am thinking I will go that way. One thing I talked to a few people, briefly, about today was output of SIT-5 compared to XA30.8. My only uncertainty is output from the SIT-5, and comparing it to XA30.8, which I own, may help me get comfortable. I think I read that you have an XA25, so comparing to that would be helpful too, I suppose.

The output of the SIT-5 does not appear to act the same as the higher output seen from the normal XA amps, e.g., XA30.8 play well above rated Class A power spec, when going into A/B - which is a great thing about those amps.

It would be really nice to demo these, but the deals that appear to be available may make them worth a shot either way.

One pair in black, one pair in silver. First World problems.

 

[Axel C]

@Axel C I have located 2 pairs of SIT-5 and am thinking I will go that way. One thing I talked to a few people, briefly, about today was output of SIT-5 compared to XA30.8. My only uncertainty is output from the SIT-5, and comparing it to XA30.8, which I own, may help me get comfortable. I think I read that you have an XA25, so comparing to that would be helpful too, I suppose.

The output of the SIT-5 does not appear to act the same as the higher output seen from the normal XA amps, e.g., XA30.8 play well above rated Class A power spec, when going into A/B - which is a great thing about those amps.

It would be really nice to demo these, but the deals that appear to be available may make them worth a shot either way.

One pair in black, one pair in silver. First World problems.

While the SIT5 has a lot more power than the other FW amps I haven't compared the SIT5 and XA25 directly as they are in two different locations/systems. To be safe I suggest you contact Pass who will probably give clear guidance to your concerns.

 

[jmimac351]

While the SIT5 has a lot more power than the other FW amps I haven't compared the SIT5 and XA25 directly as they are in two different locations/systems. To be safe I suggest you contact Pass who will probably give clear guidance to your concerns.

Thank You.

I tried that. There is always a very nice reply, often times not as definitive as the question asked, and I think I understand why.

I will share this in case it is helpful to others going down this FW path. I was planning to pull the trigger on a pair of SIT-5 yesterday, but I have pumped the brakes.

The reason is - a pair of speakers I picked up last week. Clearwave Loudspeaker Symphonia 1. Not many made, not well known... but top shelf Accuton Tweet / Mid, and SS Illuminator woofer. Enclosure built extremely well. Mundorf / Cardas parts. All great stuff. 4 ohm speakers, 86db... certainly not the easiest load, but SIT-3 is a "4-8 ohm amp" (that's what the numbers say!) and we've read about needing a resistor for 16ohm, etc. SIT-3 Power increases into 4ohm from 8, so we should be "OK", right?

So, I hook the Clearwave speakers up to my new most favoritest amp, SIT-3, and the speakers were... HORRIBLE. UNLISTENABLE. I play with speakers, and it sounded like too small airspace... humped up, bloaty, ugly mid-bass boom. I even pulled the ports from the speaker, played with a 4" OD port tube on the OUTSIDE of the enclosure to "increase airspace" (it actually helped)... but the speaker still sucked. That's the only way to put it, other than "Horrible" too. It Sucked Horribly.

But wait... Next week, I am heading to GR in Texas to help get my Line Arrays squared away. I figure it's also a great time to hear the SIT-3 on a pair of 95db, 7' tall, open baffle NX-Treme speakers. I've heard Danny's speakers with his stuff before (laid back), now I have shipped some of my stuff... KX-5 Twenty, QX-5 Twenty, SIT-3.

So, with no amp for the Clearwave... well I hook up the XA30.8 and... BINGO! HOLY COW!

The speakers came alive. The bass tightened right up. I still stuffed the port to help tighten a bit more and blended to Rythmik servo subs.

The Clearwave speakers needed an amp with CURRENT to boss those drivers around... the SIT-3 is just a bit too "friendly", but the friendliness of the SIT-3 is where the magic is, and that amp is good enough to build a speaker around, IMO.

Now, the Clearwave Loudspeaker Symphonia 1 are awesome... I want more Accuton, etc. Happy, Happy, Happy.

The thing is... the speakers were already awesome, but the SIT-3 to Speaker pairing was a horrible mismatch:

Even though, on paper, the SIT-3 should have been OK

What is interesting, my Wilson Audio Duette are great with the SIT-3. Also 4ohm, but more efficient and I suspect are just a much easier load than the Symphonia - overall. In fact, I own a Clio Pocket measuring setup, I am going to measure the Symphonia to get a better idea of what is going on - response and loading.

So, who to believe... how to know???

Unfortunately, I have found thru quite a bit of back and forth with the usual, very helpful, people - it's not quite so clear cut a proposition to "just make a call and they will confirm everything" with what are clearly "boutique" amps in the First Watt family.

I love the SIT-3 amp, but I'm sharing this so that others are very careful about matching all First Watt amps... just like they routinely advise - it's real. Be careful.

Of course, all of this is made more difficult by the inability to demo, because that's what really needs to happen with a FW amp, maybe more than any other amps.

So, next week I will hear the SIT-3 on those big NX-Treme. They SHOULD sound incredible with that amp. If they don't, I'm not sure how to move forward on SIT-5. I'm not up for 5 figure boutique amps that are finicky... and I hope that's not the case, because I love the sound. I have plenty of other amps that sound great, don't complain - XA30.8 and XA200.5.

I am hopeful the SIT-3 will be a good way to "test whether a speaker is a good fit for SIT-5." SIT-3 and SIT-5 are the only 2 FW amps I am interested in. I "think" (hope) SIT-5 is maybe the "most friendly" of all of them... the closest to a "Pass Product" and that I can own those and be very happy for a long time - but that is still a coin flip, for now.

The thing is... I won't get an "official guarantee" that's the way it will work either, so I've come here to compare notes with friends and commiserate.

Sorry for the rambling... hopefully this is of use to others as I suspect I am not the only one trying to figure out this particular riddle - and other First Watt amp riddles.

But this is a riddle worth figuring out... Nelson has given us a gift with this stuff.

He let his ears and heart make the decision, instead of a machine.