Fremer tours Dartzeel + new pre amp

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
3,270
312
83
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
#22
If it was a $10k amp, don't you think Michael Fremer (or our own Mike Lavigne) would've found a better amp, after all these years?
Do you really think they've been taken, and these two guys have kept the amp because of the beautiful case?
I'd love to see you two design an amp, for $20k, that sounds better than 458. And make money off of it. Living in Switzerland.
 

GMKF

VIP/Donor
Aug 15, 2017
408
55
28
Munich
#24
If it was a $10k amp, don't you think Michael Fremer (or our own Mike Lavigne) would've found a better amp, after all these years?
Do you really think they've been taken, and these two guys have kept the amp because of the beautiful case?
I am talking about "parts money" for the audio circuit.
I am more or less defending his design ethos in post one.
And yes in my opinion there is more money into the case than into the innards,
excluding the money Herve has had to spend to develop and patent his circuit.
(which is something special from an engineering point of view)

I'd love to see you two design an amp, for $20k, that sounds better than 458. And make money off of it. Living in Switzerland.
Besides that living in Switzerland thing I can try. Give me ten years.
 
May 20, 2016
81
4
8
Torino - Italy
#25
The matter afflicts all electronic Gear that are manufactured in Switzerland.
So... not only Dartzeel, add also FM Acoustics, CH precision etc etc ..
Salary in CH are almost the double of more than the rest of Europe, but also life Is costing much more than EU or U.S.
This cause a significant difference also in their products.
That said I'm neverthless in love with Dartzeel (and CH precision also) audio Gear.
Sonically superb.
Marco
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,645
1,460
113
London
#26
I am talking about "parts money" for the audio circuit.
I am more or less defending his design ethos in post one.
And yes in my opinion there is more money into the case than into the innards,
excluding the money Herve has had to spend to develop and patent his circuit.
(which is something special from an engineering point of view)


Besides that living in Switzerland thing I can try. Give me ten years.
This is the one of the points I have repeatedly made when some people who are clueless or purposefully dishonest (In case they have the knowledge)try to portray expensive gear as better. Do they know the components that make up the price? For example, if the salary and rent is the large part because of the geographical location alone, what does that tell us about the component sonic quality? Almost nothing. That is just one aspect, with distribution, marketing, and desired profit margins being another. As these things are not usually known, at least by the average person, it is difficult to put any correlation on the retail to the sonics.
 
Nov 11, 2013
102
7
18
U.K.
#27
This is the one of the points I have repeatedly made when some people who are clueless or purposefully dishonest (In case they have the knowledge)try to portray expensive gear as better. Do they know the components that make up the price? For example, if the salary and rent is the large part because of the geographical location alone, what does that tell us about the component sonic quality? Almost nothing. That is just one aspect, with distribution, marketing, and desired profit margins being another. As these things are not usually known, at least by the average person, it is difficult to put any correlation on the retail to the sonics.
Not only that but volume of potential sales against design and manufacturing costs. In the case of the 458, Hervé didn’t believe it would sell in great numbers because of the expense but against the odds (and price) it did. It would be an expensive process to design and build the metalwork for the prototype casework never mind tool up for production for only 50 pairs or so. Hervé also wants his amps to become heirloom pieces which is to stand the test of time, so builds with that desire in mind. If that is a design philosophy of his then as owner of the company and designer of the products it his his choice and not up for question really other that to say it’s too expensive and I’m not buying it. I’m sure the case does add to the overall sound of the amplifiers and as a personal thing I’d much prefer that to a pressed steel casework which is an inexpensive way to knock out cheap amps/cd players. While the cost of casework may be up for debate it is not up for question as it is purely the choice of the manufacturer. And as this is ‘What’s Best’ do we want our equipment built to a standard or a price? It’s a personal choice and whether I can or can’t afford it I almost always pick the former. I can’t afford 458’s, CH Precision, Air Force Zero, Lamm, Magico etc, but I sure do admire what they produce.
 
Likes: dandylinpsst

FBHIFI

New Member
Dec 21, 2013
27
4
3
#28
Value is in the eye of the beholder. Some people would never own a Ferrari, some would only own a Ferrari. The fact that a Corvette is just as fast at one third the price misses the point entirely. I listened to the 458s and now I own a pair. They meet my value requirements, but may not meet yours. This is that rare component that no one seems to get rid of. That speaks volumes about their ultimate value.
 

howiebrou

Active Member
Jun 29, 2012
298
71
28
#30
I find it funny that people continue to comment on component prices and the final product price when each has very little to do with each other in any industry. Surely the whole package and what it brings you is the most important and only important consideration?
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,645
1,460
113
London
#31
Value is in the eye of the beholder. Some people would never own a Ferrari, some would only own a Ferrari. The fact that a Corvette is just as fast at one third the price misses the point entirely. I listened to the 458s and now I own a pair. They meet my value requirements, but may not meet yours. This is that rare component that no one seems to get rid of. That speaks volumes about their ultimate value.
For me this is not an analogy because the car market is more transparent and better supply demand characteristics. with Ferrari people know what they are paying for. For example, I might decide to pay for it for brand value alone, and not for any mileage. That is my choice. With audio, people will pay for brand value and pretend on the forum they paid for mileage even when they won't have a clue of the mileage. They will also not have a clue as to what the audio equivalent of Ford, Lamborghini, or Mercedes do, unless someone on the forum tells them to look for a brand more expensive than their's.

The purchase behavior in audio is very different from in auto. Cars is also a family product often, while audio almost never is, so degree of purchase involvement differs. Cars can have many reasons to buy, all valid... Looks, status, mileage, number of passengers that can fit in, price, etc. With audio the discussion should be around sonics, with things like WAF etc purely personal.
 
Likes: analogsa

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
11,645
1,460
113
London
#32
I find it funny that people continue to comment on component prices and the final product price when each has very little to do with each other in any industry. Surely the whole package and what it brings you is the most important and only important consideration?
Sure, if you can break down the elements of the package when discussing component compares
 
Likes: howiebrou

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 26, 2015
3,708
317
83
Eastern WA
#33
The only relation I see between DartZheel is a Ferrari is coloring. Ferrari's engineering is vastly better in the sense the cars work, and there's so much more of it that's critical it's like comparing dough to a bicycle. But DartZheel is vastly more reliable - they don't blow up, ever. DartZheel offers subjective performance, Ferrari offers measured performance - very different. But both upsell aesthetics (coloring & what have you)
 
Likes: analogsa

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,358
133
63
Pleasanton, CA
#34
"Hervé also wants his amps to become heirloom pieces which is to stand the test of time, so builds with that desire in mind. "

Why would that matter if you are just going to play upgrade-itis with the whales every few years?
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,695
806
113
#35
"Hervé also wants his amps to become heirloom pieces which is to stand the test of time, so builds with that desire in mind. "

Why would that matter if you are just going to play upgrade-itis with the whales every few years?
not with darTZeel.

name me a darTZeel product with a short life cycle. minimum of 8 years.

i had my 108 stereo amp for 8 years (it was still the current product for another 5 years after that), and my series 1 18NS pre-amp for 10 years.

and even then you can upgrade your 8 year old product to the newest product.....you don't need a different chassis. so the build quality (and value) pays real dividends.

price verses value.
 
May 30, 2010
15,416
655
113
Portugal
#36
(...) and even then you can upgrade your 8 year old product to the newest product.....you don't need a different chassis. so the build quality (and value) pays real dividends.

price verses value.
If you are patient enough ... Upgrade prices are very friendly, but used prices of DartZeel plumbed because users can not be sure of when they will get an upgrade. Usually audiophiles such as me want it for tomorrow, or at maximum eight weeks! :)
 
Nov 9, 2010
7
0
1
Malaysia
#37
Taken from UK Absolute Sounds news letter.
Sill very much in the dark on it new technology.

Next generation, NHB-68NS Preamplifier
Many of you preordered it. Many of you are disappointed about postponed delivery time. Thank you for your patience.

We have been assured that this is the last time in darTZeel history that they will promise a new instrument and give schedules they can't hold. The NHB-68NS project is not frozen,to the contrary. The project is so huge and challenging that darTZeel had to push several limits beyond what they thought it was possible. At the present time, the best preamplifier you can rely on is the NHB-18NS. It shines at insanely high levels of quality along with the NHB-108 and the NHB-468; and now the heir apparent the NHB-68NS is taking it to new level.

How far are they in the advancement of the project? Pretty well ahead.

But for those who cannot wait, we recommend you order the latest version of the NHB-18NS which will remain in the catalogue and upgrade to the dearer and more elaborate NHB-68NS so you can appreciate the magic of these instruments.

With these new instruments, dartZeel certifies itself as the ultimate "Swiss manufacture" that has achieved the perfect blend of technology, experience and music passion. dartZeel is now a Grand Cru in a Swiss world of young wines.
 

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