Genesis 1.1 VS Wilson X2 Alexandria

[A.wayne]

That's true of all the older systems. What's surprising to most people is that the 7-foot tall bass tower of the Genesis 1 is a POINT source, and not a line source. The older woofer towers had only woofers on the face. This resulted in a strange radiation pattern. With the G1.2, I put woofers on the back as well (a 7-foot woofer tower with twelve 12-inch woofers!!) and this made it easier to place in the room. Now, a couple of inches or up to a couple of feet made a lot less of a difference, and integration with the midrange is much easier.

Hello Gary ,

Great upgrade , I had suggested to Arnie Nudell many moons( I'm sure you know that went over well) ago that the Gen 1 needed a bass coupler from the panel to the bass towers , as it was integration was always poor. I'm sure the bipolar pattern of the new towers makes a big difference with integration , but without a coupler it will not be seamless ..

Regards ,

 

[A.wayne]

Hi Phil - I wonder what stories JR is telling about me

I don't have the real history of the original Genesis (with Arnie Nudell and Paul McGowan) besides a few stories they told me. So, besides being founded in 1991 and closing down in 2000, there isn't much to tell. I know that they went through a lot of investors including API in Canada and even Polk Audio. When they ran out of money again in 2000 after the dot-com crash, Arnie couldn't find anyone to bail him out, and the bank foreclosed on the company and transferred everything (inventory, office documents) into a couple of warehouses in Eagle, CO.

In 2000, I was retired and living on a vineyard in Australia when I started designing a mega-listening room. I had been an audiophile for years, and when I couldn't afford it, I lusted after the Genesis V. When I could afford it, I wanted the Genesis I and was building the room large enough for this speaker. Unfortunately, Genesis went bankrupt. I did try to re-listen to some of the speakers I had rejected, and some others that I had not listened to, but nothing could match the G1.

So, in 2002 I bought the remnants of the company from the bank (by then it had lost everything - including the trademark registration) and thought that if I hired Arnie and a few "professionals" I could still be retired, have my speaker, and eat it. Unfortunately, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Manufacturing inefficiencies, bad business practices and poor quality would have sunk the company again (and all my money).

So, in 2006, I moved my family over to the US, let Arnie retire, and took over the company myself. I've redesigned almost every aspect of the technology - and yet still maintained the "Genesis sound" but improved upon. And as I keep saying - the way to earn a million in the high-end stereo business is to start with many millions. Now, I'm in Marrakech, Morocco installing a new pair of speakers for another long-time customer (he has owned his G300's since 1995) and a friend.

Wow Gary,

Thanks for the details and you are correct in your assessment , been there done that in away and best of Luck with your venture , very tuff now with 2 ch , well audio on a whole ..

Regards ,

 

[garylkoh]

Hello Gary ,

Great upgrade , I had suggested to Arnie Nudell many moons( I'm sure you know that went over well) ago that the Gen 1 needed a bass coupler from the panel to the bass towers , as it was integration was always poor. I'm sure the bipolar pattern of the new towers makes a big difference with integration , but without a coupler it will not be seamless ..

Regards ,

Thanks - I did try a coupler (like the mid-bass between the 12" woofer and the midrange of the Arnie-designed 4 & 6 series) but with the large wings and the 75-inch ribbon, it wasn't needed. The additional crossovers on the midrange, and the additional integration turned out worse for seamless coherence than just being a bit more careful with the lower-end extension of the 75-inch midrange. Widening the wings by less than a 1/2" resulted in pretty good (I thought) seamless-ness between the woofer towers and the midrange.

Have you had much personal experience with the G1 and the G1.1?

 

[GaryProtein]

Here are a couple of photos of my system.

The IRS-V has been upgraded to be a completely active crossed-over system using the Pass Labs XVR1 active crossover in a three-way configuration. The crossover points have been set at 106 Hz and 4800 Hz. Both crossover points have a 12 dB/octave slope. The XVR1 is a three piece device. There is one power supply and two control boxes. One control box of the XVR1 is used as a bandpass for the midrange (106 Hz to 4800 Hz) and the other control box has the low pass (106 Hz) to the woofers and high pass (4800 Hz) to the tweeters. The Infinity crossover is no longer in the signal path, and its sole purpose is to turn the woofer amps on and off.

Amplification for the system is the Infinity 2 KW amp on each of the woofer columns and each midrange/tweeter column is driven by a McIntosh MC602, where one channel drives the midrange and the other channel drives the tweeter. Total power is about 6400 watts. The power is derived from a dedicated electrical sub-panel.

I sit about 22 feet from the speakers.

 

[jadis]

Here are a couple of photos of my system.

The IRS-V has been upgraded to be a completely active crossed-over system using the Pass Labs XVR1 active crossover in a three-way configuration. The crossover points have been set at 106 Hz and 4800 Hz. Both crossover points have a 12 dB/octave slope. The XVR1 is a three piece device. There is one power supply and two control boxes. One control box of the XVR1 is used as a bandpass for the midrange (106 Hz to 4800 Hz) and the other control box has the low pass (106 Hz) to the woofers and high pass (4800 Hz) to the tweeters. The Infinity crossover is no longer in the signal path, and its sole purpose is to turn the woofer amps on and off.

Amplification for the system is the Infinity 2 KW amp on each of the woofer columns and each midrange/tweeter column is driven by a McIntosh MC602, where one channel drives the midrange and the other channel drives the tweeter. Total power is about 6400 watts. The power is derived from a dedicated electrical sub-panel.

I sit about 22 feet from the speakers.

Thanks for the pics, Gary. Beautiful!

 

[A.wayne]

Here are a couple of photos of my system.

The IRS-V has been upgraded to be a completely active crossed-over system using the Pass Labs XVR1 active crossover in a three-way configuration. The crossover points have been set at 106 Hz and 4800 Hz. Both crossover points have a 12 dB/octave slope. The XVR1 is a three piece device. There is one power supply and two control boxes. One control box of the XVR1 is used as a bandpass for the midrange (106 Hz to 4800 Hz) and the other control box has the low pass (106 Hz) to the woofers and high pass (4800 Hz) to the tweeters. The Infinity crossover is no longer in the signal path, and its sole purpose is to turn the woofer amps on and off.

Amplification for the system is the Infinity 2 KW amp on each of the woofer columns and each midrange/tweeter column is driven by a McIntosh MC602, where one channel drives the midrange and the other channel drives the tweeter. Total power is about 6400 watts. The power is derived from a dedicated electrical sub-panel.

I sit about 22 feet from the speakers.

Sweeeet , that's a lot of protein Gary ....

 

[A.wayne]

Thanks - I did try a coupler (like the mid-bass between the 12" woofer and the midrange of the Arnie-designed 4 & 6 series) but with the large wings and the 75-inch ribbon, it wasn't needed. The additional crossovers on the midrange, and the additional integration turned out worse for seamless coherence than just being a bit more careful with the lower-end extension of the 75-inch midrange. Widening the wings by less than a 1/2" resulted in pretty good (I thought) seamless-ness between the woofer towers and the midrange.

Have you had much personal experience with the G1 and the G1.1?

Hello ,

Not sure if they were G1 or 1.1 , they were not mine , a friend had them at the time (1997) ...

 

[garylkoh]

Here are a couple of photos of my system.

The IRS-V has been upgraded to be a completely active crossed-over system using the Pass Labs XVR1 active crossover in a three-way configuration. The crossover points have been set at 106 Hz and 4800 Hz. Both crossover points have a 12 dB/octave slope. The XVR1 is a three piece device. There is one power supply and two control boxes. One control box of the XVR1 is used as a bandpass for the midrange (106 Hz to 4800 Hz) and the other control box has the low pass (106 Hz) to the woofers and high pass (4800 Hz) to the tweeters. The Infinity crossover is no longer in the signal path, and its sole purpose is to turn the woofer amps on and off.

Amplification for the system is the Infinity 2 KW amp on each of the woofer columns and each midrange/tweeter column is driven by a McIntosh MC602, where one channel drives the midrange and the other channel drives the tweeter. Total power is about 6400 watts. The power is derived from a dedicated electrical sub-panel.

I sit about 22 feet from the speakers.

That's sweet, Gary. What are you doing on the woofers? Do you still have the servo-controller for the bass, or are you using some form of Linkwitz Transform?

 

[MrAcoustat]

First off, thank you for answering. All due respect [and I do mean all due respect, as I do not know you or your background] but I am surprised that you would mention something about the bass and not something else. You are also referring to a different speaker altogether, not to mention, one that you heard at or about 30 years ago. Now, I must admit. I have not listened to a set of Genesis speakers for about the same time but I do not remember any overponderance of bass, let alone "boomy" bass". The room I listened to it in was "L" shaped and not the best of acoustic environments at the time. It was the best I have heard at that time and 'till this day, I still have fond memories of my observations of that particular system. Even with my observations since then.

Another thing you have to remember is that an excuse, may be just that. Even if you go to an audio show today, you may not have the best sound that is available. I am happy to hear that you are satisfied with your system though. With some, it doesn't matter what they have. They still are unhappy. For that? I'm happy for you.

Enjoy the music, MrA.

Sorry Tom, small correction when i spoke about boomy bass it wasn't on the Infinity's it was on the Wilson's and i did have the chance to hear them quite a few times and it was simply not my cup of tea.

 

[Soundminded]

Line arrays - or even more specificlly, line source have lots of adavantages over point sources - especially if the point source speakers don't pay significant attention to diffraction. The only large point source that really takes diffraction seriously is the Rockport Arrakis - which is also a bi amplified, active crossover speaker (another big advantge over full range, large passive speakers). I would never seriously consider a large passive, full range speaker ( considered to be a "superspeaker")over $100k, as getting true full range, linear bass response in a room like that is virtually impossible. Hence, the Infinty IRS, the Genesis, the big Tidals and the Wisdom LS4's, are all at minimum, bi amplifed with at least one active crossover point. Even Wilson's true "super speaker" (discontinued because parts became tough to source and the impractibilty of its designer needing to go out to every install to set them up) - the WAMM - was actively bi amplified - and it also had full equalization inculded.

Not only do line arrays have lots of advantages over point sources but surface arrays, especially large surface arrays have large advantages over line arrays. You can build them yourself at a fraction of the cost of buying either alternative. IMO the advantages of panel membrane speakers (electrostatic/magneplanar etc.) is that they are the acoustic equivalent of large surface arrays. When LSAs are built with dynamic loudspeakers they have none of the disadvantages of membrane speakers and are far cheaper. Careful adjustment using equalization and multiple amplifiers will produce any desired FR. Power handling and linearity even with drivers of relatively modest cost will be enormous over point sources and membrane speakers. Each driver will be operated at a small fraction of its capabilties. Best of all is knowledgeable design of direct/reflecting systems which can obtain the equivalent ultimate room radiating characteristics of LSAs at a fraction of their size and price. The trick is to understand exactly how the system interacts with the room and engineer them to take the room into account. These have proven to be the most accurate of all however there are none that have ever been commercially available that work well. Those that made any attempt had one or more fatal design flaws.

 

[LL21]

Has anyone actually heard these in same room/system? Unlikely but it seems there was the one photo from Philippines which suggested owner did have both at different times in the same room/setup.

 

[garylkoh]

I think that would be quite unlikely.... IIRC there was one audiophile in Manila who replaced a pair of Genesis II with a pair of Wilsons, and then replaced the Wilsons with the Genesis 1.1.

I'm sure our Filipino friends on the forum will recall far better than I.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Has anyone actually heard these in same room/system? Unlikely but it seems there was the one photo from Philippines which suggested owner did have both at different times in the same room/setup.

I don't think anyone as heard them both in the same room, or else everyone would own the Genesis 1.1 without a doubt. - - -

 

[garylkoh]

I don't think anyone as heard them both in the same room, or else everyone would own the Genesis 1.1 without a doubt. - - -

Is this in Quebec?

 

[MrAcoustat]

Is this in Quebec?

Yes but i'm not lucky they carry Wilson but not yours Gary Montreal - - - http://www.cdfaudio.com/indexflash.html

 

[jadis]

I think that would be quite unlikely.... IIRC there was one audiophile in Manila who replaced a pair of Genesis II with a pair of Wilsons, and then replaced the Wilsons with the Genesis 1.1.

I'm sure our Filipino friends on the forum will recall far better than I.

Hi Gary,

From what I remember, the owner of the Genesis 2, replaced them with the Genesis 201 (I'm not so sure about the model number but they had smaller woofers on the towers and the woofers were kinda white in color). After that, he went Gen 1.1. He never had a Wilson X2. The local Wilson X2 owner went McIntosh all the way.

 

[garylkoh]

Yes but i'm not lucky they carry Wilson but not yours Gary Montreal - - - http://www.cdfaudio.com/indexflash.html

Yeah - unfortunately, I don't think that any Wilson dealer would carry Genesis too.

 

[mep]

Yeah - unfortunately, I don't think that any Wilson dealer would carry Genesis too.

Sort of like not being able to carry ARC and CJ?

 

[garylkoh]

Hi Gary,

From what I remember, the owner of the Genesis 2, replaced them with the 201 (I'm not so sure about the model number but they had smaller woofers on the towers and the woofers were kinda white in color). After that, he went Gen 1.1. He never had a Wilson X2. The local Wilson X2 owner went McIntosh all the way.

Phil, you are most likely right. I remember visiting a Manila dealer who had the old MAXX. When I was there, he brought out the Genesis 501 and we did a couple of comparisons. He very quickly put the Genesis back in storage after I left. Guess he made more money selling the MAXX.

 

[garylkoh]

Sort of like not being able to carry ARC and CJ?

Sort of like David and Goliath having lunch.