Good tube experience

[KeithR]

I did a bunch of 12ax7 tube rolling on my McIntosh C2300 this weekend into my MC601 monoblocks. For the past few weeks, I have been pretty unenamored with the C2300 which didn't really sound much better than running my Berkeley direct. Pretty SS to be honest.

We swapped out the cheap russian tubes first with some Psvanes---premium Chinese tubes that you purchase for $100/pair from Grant Fidelity. These are nice tubes, but I'd say without burn-in were only about 15-20% than the cheap ruskies. Smoother midrange was the noticable difference as well as lower noise floor.

Next up, we put in some Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7s---I know folks don't want to hear how NOS tubes are better than current production equivalents, but there really was no comparison. Airy highs, no midrange glare, you name it---all much, much better. It actually made the preamp listenable. Could be perhaps a hair more noisy, but the sound overwhelmed that fact.

We are going to repeat the exercise in a few weeks to see if the Chinese tubes settle in more.

I know a few folks around here use the diamond bottom Teles (mega bucks), but these smooth plates were really, really good.

Cheers,

KeithR

 

[Steve williams]

Keith

IMHO the holy grail of 12AX7 are the NOS telefunken circa 1962 (ECC803S) with gold pins and diamond insignia on the bottom by the pins.

If you can find a matched pair, you won't be sorry BUT be prepared as they don't come cheap. They do however last ~10,000 hours

 

[tony ky ma]

Keith

IMHO the holy grail of 12AX7 are the NOS telefunken circa 1962 (ECC803S) with gold pins and diamond insignia on the bottom by the pins.

If you can find a matched pair, you won't be sorry BUT be prepared as they don't come cheap. They do however last ~10,000 hours

IMHO 12AX7 no matter how good in quality still belong to the same group of 12AX7,12AT7 12AU7 sound, if one will pay for big money for a pair of Telfunken, I rather take WE437A although they are not directly replaceable, today's NOS price is 700 to 1K$ for one, after I sued the first one of it then I have not to use 12A series any more in my new projects
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

(...)
If you can find a matched pair, you won't be sorry BUT be prepared as they don't come cheap. They do however last ~10,000 hours

But please read this site before buying, otherwise you can be very sorry!

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html

and

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.htm

 

[Steve williams]

I am well aware of those articles and others and feel confidant when I say I have a matched pair of NOS Tele ECC803S

 

[MylesBAstor]

But please read this site before buying, otherwise you can be very sorry!

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html

and

http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/index.htm

Andy Bauman at Vintage Tube Services talks about the same things and counterfeit tubes. I think he mentioned their were some counterfeit TFK E88CCs floating around that were such a good copy that the only way one could tell was by measuring the pin diameter (which was smaller on the counterfeit version). You can also see stories of tube dealers also getting ripped off when buying lots of tubes. So it's not just the consumer. I think I posted the same question with the 6H30P-DRs being sold by Parts Connexion a while back and whether they were real "DR" version.

All should beware

 

[Steve williams]

I agree

Buy your tubes from a reliable dealer.

 

[KeithR]

Steve- I realize those Tele 803Ss are the cat's meow, but I just have a mental block on that kind of $. Aren't they like 1k/each?

The Tele smooth plates are more like $150 each NOS and that is more realistic for my system.

 

[jadis]

Steve- I realize those Tele 803Ss are the cat's meow, but I just have a mental block on that kind of $. Aren't they like 1k/each?

More like $1300.

http://store.tubedepot.com/pa-ecc803s-tele.html

 

[MylesBAstor]

More like $1300.

http://store.tubedepot.com/pa-ecc803s-tele.html

And they've had them there for quite some time No one seems to be jumping at those prices

 

[Steve williams]

FWIW, I bought mine 4 years ago from a dealer friend and got the pair for a whole lot less than their single tube price

 

[mep]

Real Telefunken small signal tubes have the diamond embossed into the bottom of the glass. That is very hard to counterfeit although I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to try. I have seen fake Telefunken tubes, but all they faked was the label on the tube. If you have Telefunken branded small signal tubes and there is no diamond on the bottom embossed into the glass, then you have a fake. The pile of real NOS Telefunken tubes left in the world is only so big and it is being chased world-wide by tube audiophiles. If you love them, you better buy them now while you can and the current price will never be cheaper.

 

[Steve williams]

Real Telefunken small signal tubes have the diamond embossed into the bottom of the glass. That is very hard to counterfeit although I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to try. I have seen fake Telefunken tubes, but all they faked was the label on the tube. If you have Telefunken branded small signal tubes and there is no diamond on the bottom embossed into the glass, then you have a fake. The pile of real NOS Telefunken tubes left in the world is only so big and it is being chased world-wide by tube audiophiles. If you love them, you better buy them now while you can and the current price will never be cheaper.

Mark

you are right on. That's why mine were so much less expensive 4 years ago than what they would cost now.

I would go so far to say that the rolling of these ECC803S was one of the biggest upgrades I made to my system

 

[microstrip]

Real Telefunken small signal tubes have the diamond embossed into the bottom of the glass. That is very hard to counterfeit although I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to try. I have seen fake Telefunken tubes, but all they faked was the label on the tube. If you have Telefunken branded small signal tubes and there is no diamond on the bottom embossed into the glass, then you have a fake. The pile of real NOS Telefunken tubes left in the world is only so big and it is being chased world-wide by tube audiophiles. If you love them, you better buy them now while you can and the current price will never be cheaper.

Unhappily the diamond embossed does not warrant genuine tubes - the factory who manufactured the TFKs also manufactured similar tubes of much lower quality with this diamond embossed in the glass for other companies. These are the tubes that are showing re-labelled as TFK. The best way of checking is what Steve referred - the thickness of the pins. As TKF supplied the thicker pin wire to the factory, only their tubes have the proper pin diameter. I have seen these fake tubes with the diamond, bought by a friend from Germany.

 

[mep]

Unhappily the diamond embossed does not warrant genuine tubes - the factory who manufactured the TFKs also manufactured similar tubes of much lower quality with this diamond embossed in the glass for other companies. These are the tubes that are showing re-labelled as TFK. The best way of checking is what Steve referred - the thickness of the pins. As TKF supplied the thicker pin wire to the factory, only their tubes have the proper pin diameter. I have seen these fake tubes with the diamond, bought by a friend from Germany.

This is news to me as I have never heard of this before. Using Telefunken's logo in the production of another branded tube during the day when Telefunken tubes were actually in production seems like would have caused serious issues with Telefunken. Companies usually safeguard/legally defend the use of their logo in another company's products. Trademark infringement I believe it is called. Looking for the diamond embossed in the bottom of the glass was pretty much your only assurance that you were buying a true Telefunken tube. If what you say is true, everyone is basically screwed. You talk about measuring pin diameter. How many people have a pair of dial calipers and know how to use them?? What is the diameter of a true Telefunken pin and the diamater of the pins used on tubes which have the Telefunken logo embossed on the bottom?

 

[MylesBAstor]

This is news to me as I have never heard of this before. Using Telefunken's logo in the production of another branded tube during the day when Telefunken tubes were actually in production seems like would have caused serious issues with Telefunken. Companies usually safeguard/legally defend the use of their logo in another company's products. Trademark infringement I believe it is called. Looking for the diamond embossed in the bottom of the glass was pretty much your only assurance that you were buying a true Telefunken tube. If what you say is true, everyone is basically screwed. You talk about measuring pin diameter. How many people have a pair of dial calipers and know how to use them?? What is the diameter of a true Telefunken pin and the diamater of the pins used on tubes which have the Telefunken logo embossed on the bottom?

See #1:

http://vintagetubeservices.com/page4.html

 

[mep]

See #1:

http://vintagetubeservices.com/page4.html

OK, I read it. He still doesn't give the diameter of the real deal pins and the fake ones.

 

[MylesBAstor]

OK, I read it. He still doesn't give the diameter of the real deal pins and the fake ones.

No, but that the counterfeit wires are not consistently sized either. They are either too big or too small. Of course, he doesn't want to give that info away

 

[FrantzM]

No, but that the counterfeit wires are not consistently sized either. They are either too big or too small. Of course, he doesn't want to give that info away

For the returns on investment involved.. The acquisition of a micrometer caliper would seem to be trivial for a would-be scammer. A good one can be had for less than $500. Aren't there objective parameters for these tubes? Not that I am in tubes but there has to be some ways to measure an ascertain what tubes one is using or at least I would think so...

 

[MylesBAstor]

For the returns on investment involved.. The acquisition of a micrometer caliper would seem to be trivial for a would-be scammer. A good one can be had for less than $500. Aren't there objective parameters for these tubes? Not that I am in tubes but there has to be some ways to measure an ascertain what tubes one is using or at least I would think so...

Frantz:

In general by looking at the codes on the tubes, construction, etc. one can more often than not, catch forgeries. But as in the art and currency world, some forgeries get past even the experts (and not all tube dealers are that knowledgable). Remember, one can always take a tube apart if needed and also reverse engineer the product; given the price that some of these tubes fetch, reverse engineering is worthwhile. But not unexpectedly, these tubes sound awful or fail after a month (Tubes, like equipment, don't sound their best fresh out of the box and often need a month of playing to sound their best.) And of course another problem is that tube manufacturers often made tubes for each other; so you might find a TFK that was made by Siemens; or another make made by Mullard, etc.

For instance, there were some fake TFK ECC 83s floating around made in Asia that were dead ringers for the real deal. The only difference was the lettering on the original TFK tubes rubs off while the fakes were too good and wouldn't rub off