Yep it does (just double-checked)...not that I would doubt you Gary! So which is correct?
Great recording labels
- Thread starter Gregadd
- Start date
Yep it does (just double-checked)...not that I would doubt you Gary! So which is correct?
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
In 20 years, a lot of mistakes can accumulate.... and I would trust the first pressing. But of course, the liner notes on the first press could have been wrong, and then it was corrected later. I guess the only one who might know would be whomever is holding on to the original tapes. The date should have been handwritten on them.
I just saw this....do you have more of those diagrams for recording setup? If not, can I get them somewhere?
I already posted them. Shure gives some pretty pictures. Try Google-ing microphone techniques or recording techniques. Go back to the beginning of the thread. They really suggest you be creative. Obviously there are pitfalls that can be easily avoided be seeing what others have done.
It's different if you want close miking or room ambiance.
Myles,
Thanks for the great list! I can only speak from my personal experience with jazz labels, but will use your list as a starting point:
Riverside: For the most part good to excellent recordings. Piano recordings by Monk and Bobby Timmons are standouts
Pablo: Along with Contemporary, the most consistently well recorded jazz label. Several of my original 33 1/3's sound better than recent 45rpm reissues!
Prestige: Spotty recording quality. As to the peformances, producer Bob Porter of Prestige Records once said that "The difference between Blue Note and Prestige is two days rehearsal."
Fantasy: I don't own enough of these to comment on their recording quality.
Verve: IMO, the worst major jazz label in terms of recording quality. Not that there aren't a few good ones...Ironically the predecessor Norman Granz' labels, Norgran and Clef, are very well recorded.
Blue Note: The gold standard of jazz labels as far as performances. Some of the coolest cover art of all time. Rudy Van Gelder production. That said, I own a few originals and you know what? They aren't that well recorded. For my money, buy the $50 Music Matters reissues and skip the $1000+ originals.
Impulse: Generally well recorded. Beautiful gatefold jackets. Some mono releases sound strident.
Columbia: World's largest label with biggest jazz catalog. Look for 6-eye pressings. Many of the mono releases are spectacular
AudioQuest: Not enough familiarity to comment
I would add the following labels to the list:
Contemporary: IMO, the consistently best recording quality. The monos are spectacular. Early stereo recordings are panned, but excellent. Expensive but worth every penny.
Argo: Inconsistent, but if you find a good one, it's as good as it gets recording quality wise. The bad ones...well, they are really bad.
Atlantic: Not thought of as a jazz label but original Coltrane, MJQ and Freddie Hubbard pressings are quite good.
Savoy: I've found these to be very good for early mono 10" and 12" recordings.
Concord: Small but excellent label
EastWind: This is a Japanese label with spectacular recordings. The Great Jazz Trio recordings are special. Released in the US on Creed Taylors CTI label which are good quality, but it's worth seeking out the original EastWind releases.
And a few sources of current issues and re-issues:
Venus: Japanese label with uniformly excellent quality pressings and performances
Eight Eight's: Japanese label with uniformly excellent quality pressings and performances
MusicMatters Blue Note: The gold standard for jazz re-issues. Great sonics, amazing packaging and some of the greatest jazz ever recorded. Essential
Analogue Productions: Sonically excellent Blue Note reissues but not quite to the standard of Music Matters sonically or packaging-wise. Their Impulse reissues are also excellent. I would seek out the original Pablo and Contemporary pressings as an alternative to their re-issues. Not a slight of AP, it's that the originals are that good.
Mosaic: They have recently revived their vinyl reissues. I own 25+ of their box sets which are always top notch. The recent Monk and Ellington/Ella releases are tremendous. Looking forward to their reissue of Getz on Norgran.
Thanks for the great list! I can only speak from my personal experience with jazz labels, but will use your list as a starting point:
Riverside: For the most part good to excellent recordings. Piano recordings by Monk and Bobby Timmons are standouts
Pablo: Along with Contemporary, the most consistently well recorded jazz label. Several of my original 33 1/3's sound better than recent 45rpm reissues!
Prestige: Spotty recording quality. As to the peformances, producer Bob Porter of Prestige Records once said that "The difference between Blue Note and Prestige is two days rehearsal."
Fantasy: I don't own enough of these to comment on their recording quality.
Verve: IMO, the worst major jazz label in terms of recording quality. Not that there aren't a few good ones...Ironically the predecessor Norman Granz' labels, Norgran and Clef, are very well recorded.
Blue Note: The gold standard of jazz labels as far as performances. Some of the coolest cover art of all time. Rudy Van Gelder production. That said, I own a few originals and you know what? They aren't that well recorded. For my money, buy the $50 Music Matters reissues and skip the $1000+ originals.
Impulse: Generally well recorded. Beautiful gatefold jackets. Some mono releases sound strident.
Columbia: World's largest label with biggest jazz catalog. Look for 6-eye pressings. Many of the mono releases are spectacular
AudioQuest: Not enough familiarity to comment
I would add the following labels to the list:
Contemporary: IMO, the consistently best recording quality. The monos are spectacular. Early stereo recordings are panned, but excellent. Expensive but worth every penny.
Argo: Inconsistent, but if you find a good one, it's as good as it gets recording quality wise. The bad ones...well, they are really bad.
Atlantic: Not thought of as a jazz label but original Coltrane, MJQ and Freddie Hubbard pressings are quite good.
Savoy: I've found these to be very good for early mono 10" and 12" recordings.
Concord: Small but excellent label
EastWind: This is a Japanese label with spectacular recordings. The Great Jazz Trio recordings are special. Released in the US on Creed Taylors CTI label which are good quality, but it's worth seeking out the original EastWind releases.
And a few sources of current issues and re-issues:
Venus: Japanese label with uniformly excellent quality pressings and performances
Eight Eight's: Japanese label with uniformly excellent quality pressings and performances
MusicMatters Blue Note: The gold standard for jazz re-issues. Great sonics, amazing packaging and some of the greatest jazz ever recorded. Essential
Analogue Productions: Sonically excellent Blue Note reissues but not quite to the standard of Music Matters sonically or packaging-wise. Their Impulse reissues are also excellent. I would seek out the original Pablo and Contemporary pressings as an alternative to their re-issues. Not a slight of AP, it's that the originals are that good.
Mosaic: They have recently revived their vinyl reissues. I own 25+ of their box sets which are always top notch. The recent Monk and Ellington/Ella releases are tremendous. Looking forward to their reissue of Getz on Norgran.
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OK let me add a few followup comments.
1. It's great to recommend original recordings but my experience is that the majority of them are in terrible shape; that's opposed to classical LPs where either the owners only played them once and put them on the shelf or had some better tables. I've returned countless jazz LPs that were graded as mint or NM. I can count the number of classical albums returned on one hand in the last five years.
2. I highly recommend the MM and Analog Production 45 rpm series. I've compared some to 15 ips tapes and they are very good transfer. The main thing I hear is that the LP is a little lighter sounding and brighter. The LPs are even slightly closer to the tapes thru the Allnic phono section.
3. Fantasy is hit or miss. Some good, some bad. I also think Verves are a little better than you give them credit for. The tapes sound much better than the LPs. Listen to the 45 rpm issues and one hears some of the sound issues probably stem from poor transfers/vinyl. Verves tend to somewhat veiled with a pronounced bump in the low midrange of voices giving them an unnatural chestiness. That said, Oscar Peterson We Get Requests is to die for! Some other great recordings/music on Verve include Mel Torme I Dig the Count/I Dig the Duke, Gerry Mulligan Meets Ben Webster and Ella Fitzgerald Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie.
4. Contemporary is underrated. As Steve Hoffman told me, these albums were recorded in Contemporary's mail room after hours
The best sounding Contemporary is Benny Carter Jazz Giant. Great musicians backing him and great sound!!! Very close to the tape! The tape just has a little more palpabality and less mechanical feel to it.5. I give the Impulses a slight edge over the BNs. As Steve Hoffman related to me, most of the BNs are recorded very hot and there's some tape overload. My favorite Impulse is A-1 with JJ Johnson/Kai Winding (not to mention Bill Evans and a host of other great sideman!). Positively spooky and in the right system, their trombones have an eery tonality. (esp at CES this year thru the BIG Sonus Fabers!).
6. Don't forget the ORG transfers by Bernie Grundman. I've never been a great fan of his earlier work but his latest total retooling of his remastering chain has clearly born fruit. The 45 rpm ORG Impulses are really good though still prefer Steve Hoffman's transfer work as a whole.
7. Be careful with the OJC. They vary widely in sound quality and are about 1/10th of the original sound. The LPs just sound emasculated
Boy, we really need to have a comparable discussion about the CDs, both reissues and new recordings.
Lee
Lee
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
I absolutely agree.
I just came from a visit to a friend to whom I had raved and raved over The Weavers 1963 Reunion at Carnegie Hall in 24/96. He went and bought it from HDTracks, and he was disappointed because it didn't sound as "alive". I just visited, and listened to his copy and it sounded lifeless. Luckily I had my laptop with me, and copied mine to his server and compared the two - it was like night and day (or dead and alive).
What gives???? My copy is from the Classic Recordings DVD-A, and his is from HDTracks.
We are always discussing LP releases, first pressings and reissues. I haven't read much discussion about digital releases.
Only Bruce could answer this definitively. Maybe it wasn't the same source? I have a 15 ips copy and it's plenty alive. In fact, one can hear how Vanguard purposely rolled off the low end because there's no record of them stomping around on stage. Well maybe a hint but when one hears the tape, your first rxn is that there's something wrong with the woofers
Gary,
I certainly can't say if this has anything to do with it, but we do know that each pressing copy of a CD like each pressing copy of an LP (and in the case of the LP each side) can and does sound different.
Rich
OK let me add a few followup comments.
1. It's great to recommend original recordings but my experience is that the majority of them are in terrible shape; that's opposed to classical LPs where either the owners only played them once and put them on the shelf or had some better tables. I've returned countless jazz LPs that were graded as mint or NM. I can count the number of classical albums returned on one hand in the last five years.
2. I highly recommend the MM and Analog Production 45 rpm series. I've compared some to 15 ips tapes and they are very good transfer. The main thing I hear is that the LP is a little lighter sounding and brighter. The LPs are even slightly closer to the tapes thru the Allnic phono section.
3. Fantasy is hit or miss. Some good, some bad. I also think Verves are a little better than you give them credit for. The tapes sound much better than the LPs. Listen to the 45 rpm issues and one hears some of the sound issues probably stem from poor transfers/vinyl. Verves tend to somewhat veiled with a pronounced bump in the low midrange of voices giving them an unnatural chestiness. That said, Oscar Peterson We Get Requests is to die for! Some other great recordings/music on Verve include Mel Torme I Dig the Count/I Dig the Duke, Gerry Mulligan Meets Ben Webster and Ella Fitzgerald Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie.
4. Contemporary is underrated. As Steve Hoffman told me, these albums were recorded in Contemporary's mail room after hours
5. I give the Impulses a slight edge over the BNs. As Steve Hoffman related to me, most of the BNs are recorded very hot and there's some tape overload. My favorite Impulse is A-1 with JJ Johnson/Kai Winding (not to mention Bill Evans and a host of other great sideman!). Positively spooky and in the right system, their trombones have an eery tonality. (esp at CES this year thru the BIG Sonus Fabers!).
6. Don't forget the ORG transfers by Bernie Grundman. I've never been a great fan of his earlier work but his latest total retooling of his remastering chain has clearly born fruit. The 45 rpm ORG Impulses are really good though still prefer Steve Hoffman's transfer work as a whole.
7. Be careful with the OJC. They vary widely in sound quality and are about 1/10th of the original sound. The LPs just sound emasculated
Thanks Myles! This is great stuff. Very helpful to have the insight of a tape guy!
1. I agree that it is more difficult to find NM jazz and rock used LPs. People played these LPs a lot; often drunk, high or both ;-) Through trial and error I've found a few reliable sellers on Ebay. Your experience with used classical is similar to mine. Box sets/operas are often unplayed and excellent sounding.
2. Agreed.
3. Perhaps our difference of opinion regarding Verve recordings is attributable to the differences between the originals versus reissues/tape. The 45 rpm reissue of "Gerry Mulligan Meets Ben Webster" is fabulous and one of my favorites.
4. Agreed. The Benny Carter "Jazz Giant" is terrific. I also like Carter's "Swingin' the '20's". Keep an eye out for the Art Pepper's "Smack Up" and "Gettin' Together", Leroy Vinnegar "Walkin'", Barney Kessel/Ray Brown/Shelley Manne "The Poll Winners" and Teddy Edwards "Teddy's Ready".
5. Thanks. I'll look for the JJ and Kai
6. Agreed.
7. Sadly I agree. I can only recommend one OJC: Tommy Flanagan and John Coltrane "The Cats"
I'm a neophyte with classical labels and haven't found a rhyme or reason with respect to labels other than the grey Columbia 6 eyes generally sound good. Maybe just a lack of experience on my part, but I've had mixed results with RCA, Mercury and Angel.
Can you offer any further insights?
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Only Bruce could answer this definitively. Maybe it wasn't the same source?
We've never done a transfer of "The Weavers' for HDtracks. He must have gotten it from somewhere else. Upsampled CD rip maybe?
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Hi Rich,
I agree. That is why green pens, edge cutters, CD mats, all make a difference with the sound. However, once it is ripped, all this does not make a difference. Nevertheless, different issues can sound different, and this is due to the different digital data that was pressed. They are likely to be different masters. Even if they were all transfers from the same analog tape, due to the transfer equipment and process, they can sound different.
Since we now know that Bruce did not do the transfer, we do not know how the HDTracks file was sourced. It could have been from the same analog master, but they used inferior electronics (including the ADC) to the Classic Recordings DAD (which I believe was the Pacific Microsonics).
BTW, the second Kai Winding, Impulse A3 is also amazing. What I also found interesting is that Impulse wanted to kick the label off with a recording that would send a msg to jazz fans --and I can't think of two better recordings
Of course, Coltrane came later--and interestingly asked for van Gelder for a recording engineer.).