Ground Loops and Proper Grounding by FM Acoustics

[Folsom]

Sounds like a setup problem.

It's a simple fact that not everything should be grounded, and what you ground it with cannot change that. Was it worse grounded with the Altaira than just wire? Unknown, that would be like comparing strains of black mold for preference, you don't want either in this situation.

 

[Lee]

It's a simple fact that not everything should be grounded, and what you ground it with cannot change that. Was it worse grounded with the Altaira than just wire? Unknown, that would be like comparing strains of black mold for preference, you don't want either in this situation.

It’s really simple. I put in the Altaira and the noise dropped. The product is really effective.

 

[Folsom]

It’s really simple. I put in the Altaira and the noise dropped. The product is really effective.

In your application that is the perceived results. No one is arguing you are not hearing what you say.

 

[Lee]

In your application that is the perceived results. No one is arguing you are not hearing what you say.

And it’s not just me. Several friends have heard it as well.

 

[Amir]

Most (over 90%) of audiophiles prefer AC filters but it does not mean AC filters are good .

if your system does not show any negative effect (of AC filters) it means your system is not transparent enough.
If your system is transperent but your ears does not care about reduction of emotional energy (and micro dynamics) it means you are not trained audiophile.

There is no good AC solution in high end Market.

TAD Labs does not recommend any types of AC filters.

 

[Amir]

TAD products have no earth conection via AC cable because the input AC plug of TAD products have just 2 pin.

TAD Complete system does not have any ground loop in this configuration:

D600
C600 (left channel)
C600 (right channel)
M700 (left channel)
M700 (right channel)

 

[Amir]

 

[DasguteOhr]

The devices are insulated must under no circumstances be grounded this sign says that.

 

[Amir]

TAD Laboratories recommends not connecting chassis to earth wire in PDF manual.

I have checked this and listened to both :
1- floated chassis ground
2- earth wire connected to chassis

the sound degrades in 2

 

[DasguteOhr]

TAD Laboratories recommends not connecting chassis to earth wire in PDF manual.

I have checked this and listened to both :
1- floated chassis ground
2- earth wire connected to chassis

the sound degrades in 2

If the protective conductor(earth wire) within the insulated device is connected to a conductive part, the device is no longer insulated.
This means that there is no longer any protective function in the event of a fault or electric shock, which can be life-threatening.
In the event of a fire caused by this, no insurance will pay so stay away from it. My tip

 

[Folsom]

Most (over 90%) of audiophiles prefer AC filters but it does not mean AC filters are good .

if your system does not show any negative effect (of AC filters) it means your system is not transparent enough.
If your system is transperent but your ears does not care about reduction of emotional energy (and micro dynamics) it means you are not trained audiophile.

There is no good AC solution in high end Market.

TAD Labs does not recommend any types of AC filters.

I agree that there is a total lack of good AC filters in high end audio. But your reasoning doesn't account for what's really going on nor is it able to give any objective reason why it's not possible to have.

If your system does not show negative effects, it isn't transparent? No, it's insensitive to AC changes. Even a low transparency system can display problems from an AC filter.

AC filters don't have to reduce emotional energy and micro dynamics, but plenty do. And why is it important to criticize someone for something they don't care about?

TAD Labs using double insulated appliances means that the majority of AC filtration won't work because they are designed for common mode that typically is found in large amounts on safety ground (third prong). But intermingling with other devices can change this scenario. All 2 prong devices means differential noise would be what you could target to filter instead of common mode. Worth it? Most of the time probably not necessary. Safety ground shouldn't be looked at as magical noise out path, ever.

The devices are insulated must under no circumstances be grounded this sign says that.


View attachment 118037

That is a symbol for double insulated. Attaching a ground to the enclosure won't change anything except making your gear sound worse typically. Attaching to circuit does not mean failure of insulation internally. Technically this could happen by the next piece in chain having ground/negative rail connected to chassis, and there for has a path through RCA ground. The double insulated device has precautions to prevent AC voltages from making it out to attached devices. For example transformers require minimum insulation between primary and secondary based on voltage (it's higher than required by non Class II devices but a lot).

 

[Folsom]

If the protective conductor(earth wire) within the insulated device is connected to a conductive part, the device is no longer insulated.
This means that there is no longer any protective function in the event of a fault or electric shock, which can be life-threatening.
In the event of a fire caused by this, no insurance will pay so stay away from it. My tip

This is incorrect.

The device then has a drain path to the circuit breaker. Whether or not the ground is exposed with insufficient insulation to AC voltages depends on compliance of the connecting device (which may not have any AC voltages). You did not open a path to AC voltage. You didn't even open a path to ground if it's to enclosure. You don't invalidate insulation internally by touching the outside. If you did then touching something grounded then touching a TAD device would fucking floor you as electricity wrecked you going through arms and possibly across heart to dead you. We know that does not happen.

 

[Folsom]

TAD Laboratories recommends not connecting chassis to earth wire in PDF manual.

I have checked this and listened to both :
1- floated chassis ground
2- earth wire connected to chassis

the sound degrades in 2

There is an actual technical reason for that. Everyone thinks they're upgrading old 2 prong gear by adding ground but they're wrong. Safety? Maybe from lightening.

 

[wil]

There is an actual technical reason for that. Everyone thinks they're upgrading old 2 prong gear by adding ground but they're wrong. Safety? Maybe from lightening.

A couple of years ago I worked very hard to lower the resistance of my Earth ground from 80 ohms to 10 ohms. At some point later I needed to redo the connection. Out of curiosity I listened to my system completely un-connected to earth ground and then reconnected. I heard absolutely no difference.

 

[Alrainbow]

there are two forms of ground issues that need to be addressed.
I’ve always been an advocate of power isolation start to finish.
no made iso power supply really isolates completely due to NEC code in the USA
so no matter what claims are made the house grounding system carries through
If I were to give advise I would first insure the house has a properly functioning grounding system.
Rex does this best.
next is signal isolation this little is done but plenty of high cost products that may help but rarely isolate electrically
removing line noise is not isolating the signal.
varying build properties prevent pure signal isolation due to topology wiring used.
So as I see this there is only one pure signal isolation method.
this is the use of Galvanic isolation transformers.
Typically called hum busters many brands to choose from
ISO max is a brand I’ve used a few times pretty simple and versatile

 

[Alrainbow]

Grounding methods used have many benefits but a device signal iso I feel needs to be first this allows any further grounding to have one path.

 

[Amir]

If your system does not show negative effects, it isn't transparent? No, it's insensitive to AC changes. Even a low transparency system can display problems from an AC filter.

AC filters don't have to reduce emotional energy and micro dynamics, but plenty do. And why is it important to criticize someone for something they don't care about?

TAD Labs using double insulated appliances means that the majority of AC filtration won't work because they are designed for common mode that typically is found in large amounts on safety ground (third prong). But intermingling with other devices can change this scenario. All 2 prong devices means differential noise would be what you could target to filter instead of common mode. Worth it? Most of the time probably not necessary. Safety ground shouldn't be looked at as magical noise out path, ever.

if an audio system is insensitive to AC changes then no body pay for AC filters.
yes , every audio system (both transparent and non transparent) can display the some effects of AC filters but not all effects of AC filters, for example high feedback dead sounding amplifiers do not show awful effect of AC filters on micro dynamics.


If an audiophile does not care about micro dynamics or emotion energy of music then he never find the right way for having a good audio system. The unconscious mind is active and the long term satisfaction relates to emotional energy of music.

 

[Amir]

There is an actual technical reason for that. Everyone thinks they're upgrading old 2 prong gear by adding ground but they're wrong. Safety? Maybe from lightening.

TAD believes this approach is better for getting better sound and I like it.

the only thing that makes me think about it is the emi/rf shielding of the room.

 

[Amir]

there are two forms of ground issues that need to be addressed.
I’ve always been an advocate of power isolation start to finish.
no made iso power supply really isolates completely due to NEC code in the USA
so no matter what claims are made the house grounding system carries through
If I were to give advise I would first insure the house has a properly functioning grounding system.
Rex does this best.
next is signal isolation this little is done but plenty of high cost products that may help but rarely isolate electrically
removing line noise is not isolating the signal.
varying build properties prevent pure signal isolation due to topology wiring used.
So as I see this there is only one pure signal isolation method.
this is the use of Galvanic isolation transformers.
Typically called hum busters many brands to choose from
ISO max is a brand I’ve used a few times pretty simple and versatile

I think low power isolation transformers are not good. For most solidstate audio systems it seems the Isolation transformer should be over 20KVA (150kg).
there are some UI isolation transformers from Dantrafo Group (Denmark) and it seems Wavac uses Denkenseiki (Japan) transformers.
I am thinking about using both of them and check the result.

It seems not all isolation transformers are good for sound but it seems the good isolation transformers have least negative effects on the sound.

Romy, David and some others do not like the sub-bass quality of isolation transformers.

 

[Amir]

Maybe it is better to have 5 different/isolated AC power (no phase delay) for these sections :

- high Power class AB amplifiers
- low power class A amplifiers
- Low power analog equipments like pre amplifiers/phonostages/...
- digital equipments like Transport, dac, music servers
- turntable motors