Handmade Cartridges and Sample-to-Sample Variation

[Ron Resnick]

It is difficult enough to select a phonograph cartridge, even assuming we know the sonic result we are seeking to achieve.

But we also know that the most expensive cartridges typically are handmade. These are products which are made by one or more individuals using selected components. The innards of different cartridges of the same make and model may not be electrically or mechanically identical. The skill of two different craftsmen making the same model of cartridge may not be identical. Even if the innards and the builder of two copies of the same model of cartridge are the same, humans are not machines making computer-controlled motions and it is still possible that the resulting cartridges may not be identical for one or more reasons.

So how should we think about this?

Should we stop sweating selecting one very similar model versus another because the intra-sample variation within a model may exceed the electrical or mechanical or sonic variations across models?

We have Peter's report of an audiophile who auditioned three different models of cartridges in a dealer's sound room. The customer decided upon one of the three cartridges, and the dealer went to the stock room to get a new-in-the-box copy of the selected model. The customer told the dealer that he (the customer) wants the exact cartridge he heard during the comparison demo, not another copy of the same model of cartridge from the back.

Should we make dealers demo for us different copies of the same model of cartridge so we can pick the one we like best?

Or should we be more nihilistic and just acknowledge that your ABC cartridge may not sound like my ABC cartridge?

Have you compared two different models of the same cartridge? What was your experience and your conclusion?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i owned 7 different vdH Colibri's, 4 at one time.

I would compare it to 7 different hot girlfriends......none of which would be the type you would take home to mom. but each one wonderful in her own way.

think Formula 1 car knife edge explosiveness and super fine nuance. but then could tip over into a bucket of crap any minute. I broke the best of my 7 Colibri's and it was never the same. then went nuts trying to recapture that magic.

each one had a different length stylus, each one had a different sort of miss alignment, and each one had it's own personality. maybe the build quality depended on the time of the day or the day of the week.

finally I moved on to a more predicable cartridge culture......the Lyra Olympus SL.

but I still miss my harem of Colibri's.

 

[JackD201]

In my experience there are differences but more of the splitting hairs variety. I think of it like buying drivers. I'll take a demo use it and buy the make and model that I like. A PGA tour pro might go through a few from a tour van barrel all spec'd the same and walk away with one. I lack the repetitiveness in my golf swing that those guys have and that might be the case with carts, where any differences in set up despite efforts for identical conditions could have more of an impact on the final sound than differences in the carts themselves.

 

[steve williams]

Is this really as big of an issue as Ron suggests

 

[Ron Resnick]

Is this really as big of an issue as Ron suggests

That actually is a very good question. I have no idea how big this issue is. I am raising the issue but I do not know the magnitude of this issue. That, in my mind, would depend directly upon the actual sample-to-sample variation.

Let's hypothesize that we can measure and quantify the sample-to-sample variation in sonic attributes among cartridges of the same model. (I know we cannot measure and quantify this.) Then we could set a threshold or standard. For example, we could decide to accept a 10% sonic variation among copies of the same model of cartridge, but decide that a 30% variation is unacceptable.

 

[Folsom]

I think it's actually very simple. Only buy from someone that has a return policy if the cartridge isn't correct, and use a microscope to check to make sure an appeasable VTA is possible, and not out of the question due to impossible angles from a problem in it's manufacturing. And also use a proper test record to check that the azimuth is attainable as well. There is no price point where these are not legitimate concerns.

Aside from that it's somewhat luck of the draw. And any that stand out too much may actually be closer to faulty, even if they're F1 fun. Like beautiful girlfriends you would never have taken home to mother, you just appreciate the time you have with them even if you know your next one or last one was better. Personally I'd just setup and check on whatever seems to be good, and let it run it's coarse. Obsession too much is like finding 10 copies of the same LP, so you can find the best side A and best side B... as if your life was a very large tree and Paul Bunyan came and took some enormous chunks out of you.

I don't think any dealer wants to spend the hours involved in a truly proper setup for a cartridge to show someone, and then have a bunch of 'used' cartridges. It would take multiple days to hear them, with long periods inbetween. And the reality is very few will ever be bad, so if you have one you're in-love with maybe dedicate an extra arm to it?

 

[JackD201]

Is this really as big of an issue as Ron suggests

It might be for some. I'm pretty sure it is negligible for TechDAS, Brinkmann, MYSonic and Airtight. I saw the measurement traces when I was at the TD assembly room's CAD center.

 

[steve williams]

Jack are you saying Tech Das cartridges or Tech Das tables.

 

[JackD201]

Cartridges Stevie. I was looking at the plots of all of the above mentioned.

 

[steve williams]

so these companies have strict testing and quality control. Good to know Jack

 

[ddk]

IME sample to sample variation from reputable brands is minimal and inconsequential Ron. Since many audiophiles, reviewers, etc. either aren't able to set up their arm/cartridges accurately or have equipment that doesn't allow accurate set up, I wouldn't put much stock in anonymous reports of gross sample variation! I'm with Jack, accuracy in setup and repeatedly is a far bigger issue.

david

It is difficult enough to select a phonograph cartridge, even assuming we know the sonic result we are seeking to achieve.

But we also know that the most expensive cartridges typically are handmade. These are products which are made by one or more individuals using selected components. The innards of different cartridges of the same make and model may not be electrically or mechanically identical. The skill of two different craftsmen making the same model of cartridge may not be identical. Even if the innards and the builder of two copies of the same model of cartridge are the same, humans are not machines making computer-controlled motions and it is still possible that the resulting cartridges may not be identical for one or more reasons.

So how should we think about this?

Should we stop sweating selecting one very similar model versus another because the intra-sample variation within a model may exceed the electrical or mechanical or sonic variations across models?

We have Peter's report of an audiophile who auditioned three different models of cartridges in a dealer's sound room. The customer decided upon one of the three cartridges, and the dealer went to the stock room to get a new-in-the-box copy of the selected model. The customer told the dealer that he (the customer) wants the exact cartridge he heard during the comparison demo, not another copy of the same model of cartridge from the back.

Should we make dealers demo for us different copies of the same model of cartridge so we can pick the one we like best?

Or should we be more nihilistic and just acknowledge that your ABC cartridge may not sound like my ABC cartridge?

Have you compared two different models of the same cartridge? What was your experience and your conclusion?

 

[JackD201]

so these companies have strict testing and quality control. Good to know Jack

Indeed Steve but I think it is generally true for all major players of good repute.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Is Koetsu one of the companies which tests its cartridges and includes an actual frequency response trace with every cartridge?

 

[DaveyF]

Ron, there was some discussion a few years back as to how the production at Benz Micro had slowed to a crawl; due to the fact that there were so few workers left who could actually assemble the cartridges to the standard that Albert Lukaschek demanded.

 

[Folsom]

Ron, there was some discussion a few years back as to how the production at Benz Micro had slowed to a crawl; due to the fact that there were so few workers left who could actually assemble the cartridges to the standard that Albert Lukaschek demanded.

Sad state of affairs to be in, where they unable to hire people?

It is somewhat amazing how ephemeral cartridges are to go along with their counter-part, the vinyl disc.

 

[beaur]

The same thing could be said of any hand-made components in your signal chain. Yes cartridges require fine detail work but just like anything else once the prper tools are used and the skills mastered it's not "hard" to do. I have never assembled a cartrige but i did make my own sensors for some experiments in grad school. Once I got the hang of it I could knock them out at a consistent rate and quality with only occasional rejects.

Also depending on the tonearm you are mounting said cartridge on that arm may require more precise work to build than the cartridge, and there are more potential points of failure there. As has been said, buy from a good dealer or manufacturer who provides some type of return/exchange policy. In 30 years of buying hi-end electronics the only time I have a cartridge bad out of the box was a mass production one.

Now if you are willing to go the ML route just buy 5 or more and keep the 2 best and sell the rest!

It is difficult enough to select a phonograph cartridge, even assuming we know the sonic result we are seeking to achieve.

But we also know that the most expensive cartridges typically are handmade. These are products which are made by one or more individuals using selected components. The innards of different cartridges of the same make and model may not be electrically or mechanically identical. The skill of two different craftsmen making the same model of cartridge may not be identical. Even if the innards and the builder of two copies of the same model of cartridge are the same, humans are not machines making computer-controlled motions and it is still possible that the resulting cartridges may not be identical for one or more reasons.

So how should we think about this?

Should we stop sweating selecting one very similar model versus another because the intra-sample variation within a model may exceed the electrical or mechanical or sonic variations across models?

We have Peter's report of an audiophile who auditioned three different models of cartridges in a dealer's sound room. The customer decided upon one of the three cartridges, and the dealer went to the stock room to get a new-in-the-box copy of the selected model. The customer told the dealer that he (the customer) wants the exact cartridge he heard during the comparison demo, not another copy of the same model of cartridge from the back.

Should we make dealers demo for us different copies of the same model of cartridge so we can pick the one we like best?

Or should we be more nihilistic and just acknowledge that your ABC cartridge may not sound like my ABC cartridge?

Have you compared two different models of the same cartridge? What was your experience and your conclusion?

 

[Kcin]

I'm sure sample to sample variation does occur in handmade cartridges - even those wound by machinery. However, I don't believe that the issue is responsible for any more inaccuracies than say any electrostatic speaker or mechanical system ( think turntable, isolation, damping, belt tightness, azimuth, P2S distance etc.) Even electronics in our consumer world vary considerably in performance based on tolerances of devices and other factors.

Anyone can get a dud in any type of product I suppose.

It mostly is not worth worrying about but I've certainly heard that some manufacturers or cottage type professionals having wide tolerances between similar models because of ongoing "development".

I know that Dynavector and Benz for example, print response curves for the specific cartridge in the package for at least their higher end models.

 

[Kcin]

Is Koetsu one of the companies which tests its cartridges and includes an actual frequency response trace with every cartridge?

Koetsu is one of those companies that provides absolutely nothing in the box- no instruction, guidance or specifications. You buy into the mystique. I have had several examples through the years- none of them included a thing.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Koetsu is one of those companies that provides absolutely nothing in the box- no instruction, guidance or specifications. You buy into the mystique. I have had several examples through the years- none of them included a thing.

yeah, but the Koetsu sandalwood box my RSP (Rosewood Signature Platinum) came in (in 1999) did smell great. had it (the box and cartridge) and loved it for 10 years.

 

[Kcin]

yeah, but the Koetsu sandalwood box my RSP (Rosewood Signature Platinum) came in (in 1999) did smell great. had it (the box and cartridge) and loved it for 10 years.

Sure enough, still have my RSP that was just sent back to Koetsu Japan for a re-build after an unfortunate tragedy... probably 5hrs on it now, however I've owned it for more than 10 years and it still puts a big smile on my face.

Cheers.