Price inflation is another topic but germane to the steep price drops seen in a lot of recently used gear. Some old DACs hold there value quite well. A mid 90s ML No. 30 DAC still costs several thousand and still sounds very good. Even my 2011 Ayon SKYLLA DAC goes used for around 1/3 rd the new price and will probably not go much lower because it now has a reputation of being a very good sounding DAC.
Hi fi junk vs great art and musical instruments
- Thread starter godofwealth
- Start date
My ex benefitted from such arrangements where she had a Strad on loan for 9 months to do a Paganini Caprice concert series. It was worth about $4M in early 2000s.
Only a bunch of top-tier manufacturers produced superior vintage audio equipment. And among them, it was only their flagship products that hold significance against modern stuff. Audio gear - Has it's own intrinsic value for audiophiles and pro audio. The market appeal for home entertainment in the 1980s and 1990s was catered more towards couples or families. Instead of watching a movie or TV, the members of the household could enjoy music from a set of high-quality HiFi speakers. The couch potato revolution began around 1997 - and scores of people started gaming and watching DVDs. By year 2000, most of the world had forgetten about Hi-Fi audio equipment. Then came the mp3 revolution with the first ipod just a year later in 2001! Costly art, like our hobby - audio, belongs to a niche audience. And because audio equipment doesn't hold historical or cultural significance to most people; being an audio equipment enthusiast is seen as an obscure or pointless hobby today.
- DMK
I paid $5K for my Pass Labs X250.5. 15 years later, should be able to get at least $3K. Paid $6K for my CJ ET5 pre ten years ago. Again, I think it will sell for $3K+. Maybe I am lucky. Who knows?
Having said that and IMHO, there are other reasons, not yet mentioned, for the typical "dollar value drop" phenomena.
One example is certain manufacturers that offer "new and improved" products on a two to three year cycle with no upgrade path to the owner of the previous unit. Another is manufacturer advertising, audio reviews and those who sell the gear. And then there is the "must have the latest, greatest" mentally driven attitude amongst some consumers. And finally, the exhorbitant price structure that is so often prevalent in hi end gear. I am not saying all of the above are applicable to all parties in the hi end audio universe or that new tech and tricle down improvements do not exist. But I often wonder and speculate what fuels this "market reality".
The new models are usually identified by numeric or alphabetic iterations and typically result in a signicant depreciated price for the previous model in the used marketplace. I personally believe this is, in part, intentionally driven to maximize corporate profitability. And by purchasing the latest model, consumers have "enabled" this cycle to continue.
To me, the solution is intuitive and obvious but like many other products made, most audio gear has sadly become just another "disposable" item. Sometimes, less is more. Best.
Having said that and IMHO, there are other reasons, not yet mentioned, for the typical "dollar value drop" phenomena.
One example is certain manufacturers that offer "new and improved" products on a two to three year cycle with no upgrade path to the owner of the previous unit. Another is manufacturer advertising, audio reviews and those who sell the gear. And then there is the "must have the latest, greatest" mentally driven attitude amongst some consumers. And finally, the exhorbitant price structure that is so often prevalent in hi end gear. I am not saying all of the above are applicable to all parties in the hi end audio universe or that new tech and tricle down improvements do not exist. But I often wonder and speculate what fuels this "market reality".
The new models are usually identified by numeric or alphabetic iterations and typically result in a signicant depreciated price for the previous model in the used marketplace. I personally believe this is, in part, intentionally driven to maximize corporate profitability. And by purchasing the latest model, consumers have "enabled" this cycle to continue.
To me, the solution is intuitive and obvious but like many other products made, most audio gear has sadly become just another "disposable" item. Sometimes, less is more. Best.
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Both my Pioneer Exclusive P3 and Technics SP10MK3 have appreciated in value since they were released in 1979 and 1981 respectively.
That they sound competitive now is testament to world class engineering at then excellent pricing.
Compared to the ridiculous high end pricing these days, they are absolute bargins.
That they sound competitive now is testament to world class engineering at then excellent pricing.
Compared to the ridiculous high end pricing these days, they are absolute bargins.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
This has been my turntable for years and years and I am not changing! Love my old Junk TT.
Painting n music instruments have history of thousands of years, so it takes thousands of years to develop the scale of art market like today. How long is the Hifi history?
The driving force of the market price is capital, it doesnot matter how great the thing is if the capital is not chasing it.
The thing has to have a story, a really really good story to attract capital ( story elements: when, where, who, how, fundamental, future, rareness……)
imagine in the world of Mad Max, or any post apocalypse scenario, how much would one full set of well preserved hi end system cost.
The driving force of the market price is capital, it doesnot matter how great the thing is if the capital is not chasing it.
The thing has to have a story, a really really good story to attract capital ( story elements: when, where, who, how, fundamental, future, rareness……)
imagine in the world of Mad Max, or any post apocalypse scenario, how much would one full set of well preserved hi end system cost.
...maybe 100 gallons of fuel and another 100 rounds of ammo. Minimum. Might have to throw in a 50 cal machine gun.
Vincent van Gogh shot himself 37 years old .
During his life only 1 of his paintings was ever sold for 400 belgian franks , probably not much money at the time.
I dont know if you have ever been to the van Gogh museum in Amsterdam.
His painting style was extraordinary / one of a kind , never got any recognition what so ever during his life , sad story in a way .
The Art was always there , but it apparently took many years for the public to see it.
For investors these days it might be a good diversify investment ( reduce wealth tax payments ) driving the price up , but money is just a number in the end ..... never enough .
Value of ART isn t measured in money afaic.
Coming back to HIFI , a lot of expensive bling bling magazine hyped stereo systems these days have little to with music.
Its more about costing a lot of money / Built quality / a trophy that kind a thing.
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The shorter you life span, the greater gain from the investment. Look at it this way. You can't take the money with you. If your runway is short and you have money, spend it. Unless you have a spouse that needs it. I doubt it would be tits up in a year/ But like all audio gear, what great today is called utter crap by the guy that sold it to you last week because the new model came out today. Sorry, you got burned. For a 50% loss we will give you the upgrade.
The reality is much of the audio gear today does not create a more natural and real experience. It just plays louder with less distortion in a big room. Don't have a big room, then what are you getting. A more HIFI sound?????? A more today sound?????? More real to an actual event? mmmmm. Probably not. Just different.
The first gen. CLS. Problems yes but amazing transparency and speed. Clearly SOTA even by todays standards. When I heard them in a store, my mouth dropped to the floor. I went on to own four different ML models, over a 15 year period, starting with the CLS2A and ending with the Summits.
And before that, I also owned the Acoustat 1 + 1 (another amazing ahead of its time) preceded by the Dahlquist DQ 10's with Sequerra ribbon tweeter.
And before that, I also owned the Acoustat 1 + 1 (another amazing ahead of its time) preceded by the Dahlquist DQ 10's with Sequerra ribbon tweeter.
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As always, depends. No need to paint with a too broad brush. Modern gear can be natural and great sounding. You have to choose wisely.
Republicoftexas69
Well-Known Member
I was an early adopter with the CLS, starting with the original and going through the II, IIA, IIB and IIZ. Too many replacement panels to count. Ultimately I concluded the CLS was just too limiting in terms of music. I was playing records that showed off what the CLS did great and not playing records where it failed miserably. I wanted something that sounded good on all music I wanted to play even if the peak experiences weren’t as great.
In retrospect I do believe the original CLS was the best of the different models I owned. For one thing it was the most comfortable with tube amps. Later versions were less efficient and were punishing loads.
In retrospect I do believe the original CLS was the best of the different models I owned. For one thing it was the most comfortable with tube amps. Later versions were less efficient and were punishing loads.
The problem with hi-fi is that it is a consumer product that often suffers from technological redundancy, mechanical failure, and lack of servicability. Strangely, I owned the Primare system in the OP, used it for 12 years and sold it for about half of what I paid, so it proved pretty cost-effective.
High quality keyboards and string instruments from the 17th and 18th century can be copied and they can be as good as the original. Many professional musicians use copies. I know a well-known violinist who uses an 18 century original by well-known luthier and commissioned a reproduction of that instrument, and uses both in concert.
we collect art, to the extent of having things we like to have in our house. Some pieces are by well-known artists, others by relative unknowns. Prices are a lot to do with marketing and, for example, whether the artist has been bought by reputable museums. some pieces increase in value when the artist dies.
Earlier, someone mentioned Leica. I have quite a few. What is good about Leica is usually what is bad about hi-fi.
High quality keyboards and string instruments from the 17th and 18th century can be copied and they can be as good as the original. Many professional musicians use copies. I know a well-known violinist who uses an 18 century original by well-known luthier and commissioned a reproduction of that instrument, and uses both in concert.
we collect art, to the extent of having things we like to have in our house. Some pieces are by well-known artists, others by relative unknowns. Prices are a lot to do with marketing and, for example, whether the artist has been bought by reputable museums. some pieces increase in value when the artist dies.
Earlier, someone mentioned Leica. I have quite a few. What is good about Leica is usually what is bad about hi-fi.
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I agree. Modern gear can sound good. And if designed to sound natural, do a good job at it.
What is better? No question is digital playback.
I believe solid state amplifiers are also better.
What I see as different today but doesn't make anything better is today there appears to be a larger market of very high end components. The selection and amount sold in the past of the finest pieces is much smaller. A lot of family gear was sold and broken down now. There were not as many premium pieces built for high fidelity in a desicated listening room. That's my perception.