"How can we ever truly know if we are hearing exactly what is on the recording?"

[andromedaaudio]

My best digital play back comes from this recording studio https://www.studioleroy.com/facilities.html

I see they probably use a studer in the process somewhere , i dont know what they have done here but their ¨ digi ¨ recording sounds good .
I m looking to get some more music made by them

 

[andromedaaudio]

Studer A827 the flattest studer out there flat to 20 khz , with a 1 db bump at 20 hz , which off course will only benefit all systems regarding neutrality. blue is 15 ips red is 30 ips

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ampex ATR 102 absolutely flat to 20 Khz , no bass bump a slight reduction below 40 hz instead , this is at 30 ips though

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've certainly learnt something from this thread. I thought that 15ips tape was free of the bumps and anomalies of lp. Seems I was wrong. It's just another medium w pros and cons depending on what pleases yr brain.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you find this disturbing , ......wait till you find a loudspeaker technician with proper loudspeaker Freq response measuring gear .
Let him set up the mic at ear height at your normal listening spot and do a measurement (sweep ) , move the mike 25 cm to the left and do the same , move the mike 25 cm up or down and take each time a 20 hz - 20 khz sweep/ measurement .
Tell me the results lol , 1-2 db at 40 hz is nothing.

PS Do the same again at 50 cm and 1 meter from the listening spot / center ear,.
Your then probably talking 3 -4 db anomalies up or down ,and not in the bassregion alone but also at 500 hz 1 khz 2 khz .
Thats just by moving your listening chair 1 meter backwards

 

[ddk]

If you find this disturbing , ......wait till you find a loudspeaker technician with proper loudspeaker Freq response measuring gear .
Let him set up the mic at ear height at your normal listening spot and do a measurement (sweep ) , move the mike 25 cm to the left and do the same , move the mike 25 cm up or down and take each time a 20 hz - 20 khz sweep/ measurement .
Tell me the results lol , 1-2 db at 40 hz is nothing.

PS Do the same again at 50 cm and 1 meter from the listening spot / center ear,.
Your then probably talking 3 -4 db anomalies up or down ,and not in the bassregion alone but also at 500 hz 1 khz 2 khz .
Thats just by moving your listening chair 1 meter backwards

Fastest way to kill your sound is eq and forcing flat measurements at the listening position.

david

 

[andromedaaudio]

Fastest way to kill your sound is eq and forcing flat measurements at the listening position.

david

Nah , good sound can go hand in hand with measurements imo .
If positive listening tests confirm what you measure then you re on to something , i think i read something in these lines also at the atmasphere s web site .
EQ is not the way i agree

 

[Atmasphere]

It this true all over the 20-30 kHz band?
BTW, one specific point where LP show less good performance than tape is channel separation.

Yes.

Almost any average LP playback made since the 1970s has bandwidth to 40KHz although a conical stylus will have more noise at those frequencies. No worries on the recording side. My cutter electronics go flat (no boost) at 42KHz; this is done to help prevent damage to the voice coils in the cutter. I've cut 30KHz signals at reference level and -10dB and the older Technics SL1200 with Grado Gold has no worries playing them back through an inexpensive phono equalizer.

 

[ddk]

Nah , good sound can go hand in hand with measurements imo .
If positive listening tests confirm what you measure then you re on to something , i think i read something in these lines also at the atmasphere s web site .
EQ is not the way i agree

Not against measurements, only saying that flat measuring rooms aren't something to strive for.

david

 

[bonzo75]

I've certainly learnt something from this thread. I thought that 15ips tape was free of the bumps and anomalies of lp. Seems I was wrong. It's just another medium w pros and cons depending on what pleases yr brain.

The reason audio is more interesting than politics is you have more camps to be evangelist about, unlike only two parties in politics. If it was only CD and LP, it would have been politics

 

[microstrip]

Yes.

Almost any average LP playback made since the 1970s has bandwidth to 40KHz although a conical stylus will have more noise at those frequencies. No worries on the recording side. My cutter electronics go flat (no boost) at 42KHz; this is done to help prevent damage to the voice coils in the cutter. I've cut 30KHz signals at reference level and -10dB and the older Technics SL1200 with Grado Gold has no worries playing them back through an inexpensive phono equalizer.

I was not addressing bandwidth in my post, but mainly the claims on distortion in the full audio bandwidth and noise.

What is the reference level you are using? What happens in the lower frequencies? At what levels and down to which frequencies the system is flat and distortion free? Curiously the discussion is being moved to bass , due to the tape bumps!

 

[accwai]

The reason audio is more interesting than politics is you have more camps to be evangelist about, unlike only two parties in politics. If it was only CD and LP, it would have been politics

Digital vs analog, CD vs LP, CD vs streaming, objectivists vs subjectivists, accuracy on paper vs perceptual realism, enjoyment vs transparency, gear vs music, old guard publications vs new guard internet forums, EV vs ICE, etc, etc. Endless supply of stuff to argue about if that's what floats one's boat.

 

[Atmasphere]

I was not addressing bandwidth in my post, but mainly the claims on distortion in the full audio bandwidth and noise.

What is the reference level you are using? What happens in the lower frequencies? At what levels and down to which frequencies the system is flat and distortion free? Curiously the discussion is being moved to bass , due to the tape bumps!

Noise is a function of the pressing and playback, not so much the lacquer. QRP has done some impressive work preventing the pressing process from contributing to surface noise. So they are making pressings that can exceed a -85dB noise floor! But in case its a surprise to anyone- if you have just a regular LP that has a tape master, you can easily hear when the tape starts as the background noise increases.

Distortion is a bit trickier. This relies entirely on playback of the signal in order to measure it. Most attempts to measure distortion as a part of a white paper or the like happened a long time ago- and playback has gotten considerably better since then. Those measurements didn't include how the phono cartridge (which was MM) was loaded to prevent ringing, so I have to assume that the ringing is a vast portion of the results! IMO, sloppy work.

My mastering rig is pretty typical- a pre-emphasis module, power amps and a 30dB feedback module taking its input from the feedback windings in the cutter head. Westerex states 0.8%IMD at 3.5cm (which is a lot of modulation; any more than that and the cartridge will likely not track), but its unclear how they arrived at that. If that involved playback, its a very safe bet that the actual distortion is considerably lower. This is supported by the fact that the distortion of the amplifiers alone is much lower. One must keep in mind that my system was designed in the 1960s and built in 1970; while the amplifiers were pretty advanced for the time, having serviced 100s of amplifier designs as a service technician while putting myself through school, IMO these amps are primitive and they are certainly unstable! So it would be incorrect to assume that the distortion figures stated are representative of vinyl as many mastering systems have better numbers. This is also why I've pursued the use of different power amps! Unfortunately just plugging in another amp is not a trivial matter; oscillations can easily result if the new amplifier has too much gain or phase margin issues owing to the 30dB of feedback that has to be considered.

Sorry for the verbose comments but the point is that a good LP mastering system easily has lower distortion than tape at full modulation. The limits of the LP are more in playback than they are on the record side, mostly due to poor setup- which IMO is the major advantage of digital audio.

 

[microstrip]

(...) If it was only CD and LP, it would have been politics

If it was only CD and LP it would have been history or politics of the past. Current politics is HiRez and LP!

 

[andromedaaudio]

You forgot the conservatives here representing 'real authentic value '
TAPE.

Im currently listening to John lee hooker, ; Sitten here thinkin.
I wish i had that on tape.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Fastest way to kill your sound is eq and forcing flat measurements at the listening position.

david

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[PeterA]

Not against measurements, only saying that flat measuring rooms aren't something to strive for.

david

Why is this David? I think a gentle slope down is what people prefer. I have heard live performances in small settings, I have often noticed dips and peaks in lower frequency response of the room with piano and cello. Are you saying that a flat response sounds unnatural? Could you expand on your statement?

 

[andromedaaudio]

David

Its not exactly what i meant .
Speakers will measure differently at different distances due to different dispersion patterns of their drivers .
Mine measure flat at around 2.50 - 2.75 meters , thats freq above around 400 hz , under that the room comes into play seriously.
And yes sure i like flat , i like my piano sound evenly across the freq band for example.
Its not a quality in its own right off course there is much more to transducer design.
Different people (designers ), each have their own priorities otherwise all products would be the same

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve set up my R2R rig today , and spun a lot of tape .
Turns out the 5 live piano recordings (mastertapes) i have are done in the seventies , according to the handwriten documentation that came with the tapes
I have several from Radu lupu of the concert he gave in the Concertgebouw in amsterdam. Kleine zaal ( small hall).
Also a 76 recording of Jorge Bolet
Does it sound real ,....hmm it sometimes is quite convincing .
The clapping sounds a bit sharp could be simply liverecording overload.
Dynamics is on another level then i ve ever heard from cd.
Plus the decay sounds more pure / real.
Noise floor is a bit high which is less good


Im not sure how the quality of my Studer B 62 is actually .
I had it recapped but the heads havent been maintained since the late seventies 80 s probably.

I m planning doing some recording of it either with my samsung phone or the sony A7

 

[andromedaaudio]

Next week i m gonna visit a person with 2 factory maintained Nagra T audio machines and a whole lot of interesting tapes .
Should be interesting