How close are you to the finish line

[JackD201]

lol

You have an x-rated mind Jack

More NC-17 these days. It's an age thing

 

[KlausR.]

It is (physically) impossible to achieve 100 % at home.

For 2-channel at least this is a fact. From what's left I get 100%

My systems do do this... Accurately Reproducing Any Musical Performance.

Do your speakers have the radiation pattern of a trombone, or of a French horn, or of an oboe, or of a violin. or of singing voice, or of a grand piano (see attached pdf)? Of course they don't so they simply are not capable of reproducing accurately any of those instruments.

Klaus

 

[ack]

It looks like you are the author of this article; could you educate us some more?

 

[zztop7]

See the PDF in post #82 >>> EXCELLENT

 

[microstrip]

(...) Do your speakers have the radiation pattern of a trombone, or of a French horn, or of an oboe, or of a violin. or of singing voice, or of a grand piano (see attached pdf)? Of course they don't so they simply are not capable of reproducing accurately any of those instruments.

Klaus

You are playing tricks with the meaning of the words "Accurately Reproducing". Should we go again in the objectives of sound reproduction and limitations of stereo?

 

[KlausR.]

It looks like you are the author of this article; could you educate us some more?

Yes, I’m the author of that article. Figs. 1-6 show radiation patterns of trombone, french horn, oboe, violin, singing voice. Fig. 7 shows balloon diagrams of a JBL EON-10 G2 loudspeaker (top) and grand piano (bottom). Figs. 8, 9 show the in-ear frequency response and HRTF, respectively, for different directions of sound incidence. Fig. 10 shows sound pressure levels in a concert hall for different instrument sections at different seating locations in the hall. Fig. 11 shows the frequency response for the celli for different seating locations in the hall. Fig. 12 shows the interaural cross-correlation coefficient (measure for the similarity of left and right ear signals with 1=similar, 0=dissimilar) for two different music motives in a concert hall.

The purpose of that article was to show that 1. loudspeakers can not reproduce musical instruments accurately and 2. there is no such thing as an absolute sound or reference sound in a concert hall.

Klaus

 

[KlausR.]

You are playing tricks with the meaning of the words "Accurately Reproducing". Should we go again in the objectives of sound reproduction and limitations of stereo?

Breuninger's words, not mine: Accurately Reproducing Any Musical Performance.

Not possible with 2-channel. If he meant something different he should have said so.

Klaus

 

[Groucho]

Do your speakers have the radiation pattern of a trombone, or of a French horn, or of an oboe, or of a violin. or of singing voice, or of a grand piano (see attached pdf)? Of course they don't so they simply are not capable of reproducing accurately any of those instruments.

What would be your opinion of a binaural recording? In other words, attempting to reproduce exactly the sound waves falling upon a dummy head's 'eardrums'. In this case, the radiation patterns of the individual instruments and their interaction with the surroundings are embedded in the recording. (Unfortunately, though, the listener must wear headphones and his head movements have no effect.) Ordinary Blumlein-style stereo through speakers is a little less rigorous, but nevertheless attempting something similar is it not? The radiation patterns of the instruments are embedded within the recording to some extent so, like a member of the audience in a fixed seat, we are still hearing a fair impression of the instruments interacting with the surroundings.

Could we place a percentage on the importance of an audio system being capable of reproducing a 'holographic' impression of the auditorium? I think it would vary from person to person, but for me it is fairly low. Having a system that can go all the way down to 20Hz and capable of realistic volume levels cleanly is more important.

 

[microstrip]

Breuninger's words, not mine: Accurately Reproducing Any Musical Performance.

Not possible with 2-channel. If he meant something different he should have said so.

Klaus

Breuninger (and many others) are just using the words of the original poster in the poll "100% - I can accurately reproduce any musical performance ". All members of WBF know it is not possible in the physical sense of the words using stereo, we have gone though these debates several times.

Perhaps the original poster, Ack, who was very clear in the objective of the poll, (I know some won't like the classifications, but let's play along as is.) can help you. We are enjoying the "play as is."

 

[KlausR.]

What would be your opinion of a binaural recording? In other words, attempting to reproduce exactly the sound waves falling upon a dummy head's 'eardrums'. In this case, the radiation patterns of the individual instruments and their interaction with the surroundings are embedded in the recording. (Unfortunately, though, the listener must wear headphones and his head movements have no effect.) Ordinary Blumlein-style stereo through speakers is a little less rigorous, but nevertheless attempting something similar is it not? The radiation patterns of the instruments are embedded within the recording to some extent so, like a member of the audience in a fixed seat, we are still hearing a fair impression of the instruments interacting with the surroundings.

When many years ago I bought headphones for my father the dealer using dummy head recordings and the effects were quite stunning: I could hear someone walk around me, which means in front, to the sides and behind. Is 2-channel capable of doing that using some known psychoacoustic mechanism? However, later a friend gave me some vinyl records, and one of them was a dummy head recording, and it was disappointing. I never looked in detail into binaural recordings, jj certainly can tell more.

Could we place a percentage on the importance of an audio system being capable of reproducing a 'holographic' impression of the auditorium? I think it would vary from person to person, but for me it is fairly low. Having a system that can go all the way down to 20Hz and capable of realistic volume levels cleanly is more important.

Same for me. Since 2-channel and loudspeakers have their inherent limits, I accept those limits, got myself good speakers (30 Hz-20 kHz ± 1,5 dB, 123 dB SPL in half space) and electronics and enjoy the music. For holography maybe wavefield synthesis is the solution.

Klaus

 

[RogerD]

For 2-channel at least this is a fact. From what's left I get 100%



Do your speakers have the radiation pattern of a trombone, or of a French horn, or of an oboe, or of a violin. or of singing voice, or of a grand piano (see attached pdf)? Of course they don't so they simply are not capable of reproducing accurately any of those instruments.

Klaus

You can tell a lot about radiation patterns of speakers and the distortion and noise levels of the system. In the best systems the speakers will totally disappear,there will be a few exceptions due to the recording. Accurate reproduction will increase on all levels when the speakers radiate at this level. In my system I use 4 psychoacoustic speakers a long with my main speakers. All the speakers are heard as one coherent wall of sound and I think reproduce the radiation patterns very accurately. Although using just the main speakers by themselves sounds very good,when the psycoacoustic speakers are in the loop the system is at another level. Can the radiation patterns of instruments be replicated by speakers? I think on my system it is at about 90 pct or better, maybe 95 pct.

And this level is not necessarily media or source dependent, XM radio,FM.redbook,4 track tape,all can and will disappear. You do not need a master or dub for this quality,the absence of distortion will produce it. I have had this quality with solid state,vacuum tube and nuvistor equipment and that happens to be the pecking order too,as each topology is capable but not equal by any means.

The microphone can pick up everything, so the playback system is the weak link. There is information that is not heard and through psychoacoustics,it is surprising what is actually on the recording.

 

[NorthStar]

Klaus, very nice of you to share your own perspective on this very fascinating subject.

Did you vote by the way? :b

 

[NorthStar]

For 2-channel at least this is a fact. From what's left I get 100%

Do your speakers have the radiation pattern of a trombone, or of a French horn, or of an oboe, or of a violin. or of singing voice, or of a grand piano (see attached pdf)? Of course they don't so they simply are not capable of reproducing accurately any of those instruments.

Klaus

See the PDF in post #82 >>> EXCELLENT

Post #82 indeed. ...And what a nice fresh breath of air this morning to find it here in this thread and to read Klaus' comments.

* TEST: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11926&d=1380540491

 

[KlausR.]

Can the radiation patterns of instruments be replicated by speakers?

Apparently it can, using something like this + heavy DSP:



This type speaker has also been used by French researchers (Caussé, cited in my article) who found that the closer the simulated pattern comes to the real pattern of the instrument the smaller the perceptual difference becomes.

The microphone can pick up everything, so the playback system is the weak link.

As you can see from in-ear response curves and HRFT's, human hearing is very directional, and changes with direction of incidence. The directivity of mikes is very different from the one of human hearing, that's just one weak link in the whole chain.

@NorthStar: no, I did not vote, because I consider that yes I'm at the finish line, but within the very restricted limits of 2-channel the result is not realistic at all, when I compare to what I get in a concert hall or other live venues.

Klaus

 

[RogerD]

Apparently it can, using something like this + heavy DSP:

View attachment 11928

This type speaker has also been used by French researchers (Caussé, cited in my article) who found that the closer the simulated pattern comes to the real pattern of the instrument the smaller the perceptual difference becomes.



As you can see from in-ear response curves and HRFT's, human hearing is very directional, and changes with direction of incidence. The directivity of mikes is very different from the one of human hearing, that's just one weak link in the whole chain.

@NorthStar: no, I did not vote, because I consider that yes I'm at the finish line, but within the very restricted limits of 2-channel the result is not realistic at all, when I compare to what I get in a concert hall or other live venues.

Klaus

Klaus.....is that a MBL prototype I find front to back and side to side imaging very important,it's what I call space and time. The psychoacoustic circuit reproduces that exceptionally well,a long with ambient info. the sum of all this high level reproduction can be extremely realistic albeit lacking the true scale but the performance is minimized. Speaker dependent....very much so and also high resolution or very low distortion is also key. I am strickly speaking about my system,which is somewhat unique.

The psychoacoustic speakers correct some of the human hearing deficiency. In my experience a two channel system with the psychoacoustic circuit is in a way,better than surround sound,the enhanced 2 channel is far more natural. Why such a system is not pursued more I have no idea.

 

[NorthStar]

...
@NorthStar: no, I did not vote, because I consider that yes I'm at the finish line, but within the very restricted limits of 2-channel the result is not realistic at all, when I compare to what I get in a concert hall or other live venues.

Klaus

Bob's my name. :b ...I did not think that you voted. But neither do the thought crossed my mind that you were already at the finish line.

Now I see what is that finish line for you.

_______________

Klaus, I have a question (dual) for you, if you don't mind: (a) What is your take, and experience, on multichannel music, like from Hybrid SACDs for example, and (b) can a 2-channel stereo system provides all the envelopment of the atmosphere/space from the venue? ...In a convincing manner.

 

[KlausR.]

Hi Bob,

Bob's my name. :b ...I did not think that you voted. But neither do the thought crossed my mind that you were already at the finish line.

When I was looking for a new turntable back in 1999 I spent maybe half a year looking into design of TT, arm and cartridge, read a lot of reviews, and came across Journal of Audio Engineering, Wireless World, IEEE Transactions on Audio etc. I also encountered the Great Debate for the first time (http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=3899). This paper completely changed my view on audio in general and high-end audio in particular.

When back in 2001 I looked for the first speakers I ever bought (DIY before) again I wanted to know what's important and what's not, took me about one year reading JAES etc. M. Colloms' book and then some. I came across the work of Floyd Toole and based my decision on his findings. My shortlist contained only one speaker which I then bought without prior auditioning. Switching from passive speakers with integrated amp to active speakers I then needed a (balanced) preamp and phonostage, later I switched from CD player to CD recorder. All of those I purchased looking only at specs and features, again without prior auditioning, same for the active speakers for kitchen and PC. So yes, I'm at the finish l line as I see it.

What is your take, and experience, on multichannel music, like from Hybrid SACDs for example

Experience: none. I also did not look in detail into multichannel simply because I can't place such a system in our living room (listening sofa against the rear wall). I would expect multichannel to deliver a more realistic experience, but maybe 5.1 is not enough, once saw a paper by Griesinger mentioning 11.1 as optimum. Wavefield synthesis may do the whole trick: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16587

In that system they use 52 midrange speakers, 4 woofers, 5 tweeters, a PC delivering 62 signals to the 62-channel digital amp. Apparently B&O proposes a similar system for home audio. If interested, mail me for a copy.

can a 2-channel stereo system provides all the envelopment of the atmosphere/space from the venue? ...In a convincing manner.

I think it can't: first reflections don't come from the correct directions with the correct delay, reverberation is present on the recording, but again, not the correct directions and correct delay: I've got the Adele concert in Royal Albert Hall, you can hear that it's a large hall, but you don't feel like you're in that hall. Not convincing at all in my view.

Klaus

 

[NorthStar]

Excellent answers Klaus; thanks a bunch for replying as such. ...And for providing very useful additional info plus links.

 

[RogerD]

I think it can't: first reflections don't come from the correct directions with the correct delay, reverberation is present on the recording, but again, not the correct directions and correct delay: I've got the Adele concert in Royal Albert Hall, you can hear that it's a large hall, but you don't feel like you're in that hall. Not convincing at all in my view.

Klaus

Try Tallis Scholars live in Rome or Neil Young's Massey Hall, if those recordings don't put you in the moment,I don't know what can.Two channel stereo can get you close,but a psychoacoustic enhanced system will reproduce all the ambient information that is necessary. All the information is present,it will hit you like a hammer,not just glimpses of the actual venue.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Try Tallis Scholars live in Rome or Neil Young's Massey Hall, if those recordings don't put you in the moment,I don't know what can.Two channel stereo can get you close,but a psychoacoustic enhanced system will reproduce all the ambient information that is necessary. All the information is present,it will hit you like a hammer,not just glimpses of the actual venue.

Speaking only for Neil's Massey Hall on LP, I can definitely contribute by saying that it gives one a very good feel for what the ambiance in the hall was like. I know when I listen to it and close my eyes I can feel myself as being a part of the audience.