How Decide Where to Settle on the Sonic Indifference Curve?

[the sound of Tao]

Not being an economist, I don’t know if this satisfies Ron’s condition of being completely indifferent.

Indifference and disbelief both represent existential threats to music.

 

[Tuckers]

To take your original parameters, I would put resolution on one preamp and musicality on the other. For instance, two preamps score the same, if it was between resolution in one and musicality in the other, I'd choose the one with better musicality. And I really love resolution, but if it don't have that swing...

 

[bonzo75]

Indifference and disbelief both represent existential threats to music.

I think we can rewrite the original post from this thread as follows
Thread 'An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/an-explanation-of-the-term-suspension-of-disbelief.37174/

Please note, I have made slight edits below. You will have to open them side by side in two separate windows to know the difference.
===
In the subjective hobby of high-end audio, "suspension of disbelief" refers to the phenomenon where an individual, lovingly known as an audiophile, experiences a level of immersion and emotional engagement in the music that goes beyond the technical aspects of the audio system based on the amount invested. It's a term borrowed from the world of literature and drama, where audiences willingly set aside their senses to fully immerse themselves in the narrative they post on the forum.

In the context of high-end audio, suspension of disbelief occurs when the listener becomes so engrossed in their equipment that they forget the live performance. Achieving this state often requires a highly expensive audio system.

When a listener achieves suspension of disbelief, they may perceive the sound more indifferently. This phenomenon is often associated with a feeling of being transported to the recording studio or concert hall, experiencing the nonchalance felt by those not interested in classical at the Vienna musikverein.

Audiophiles and enthusiasts often seek to attain suspension of disbelief and indifference as a benchmark for evaluating the quality of their audio setup, because only with such indifference can they be fully satisfied and believe. They invest in high-end audio equipment - a lot - to enhance the chances of achieving this heightened state of engagement. However, it's important to note that the experience of suspension of disbelief is highly subjective and may vary from person to person based on individual preferences, listening skills, and levels of indifference.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Indifference and disbelief both represent existential threats to music.

Music which is lacking / not adequate can be " repaired " with different cables / wooden blocks placed in a particular order /grounding schemes / coloured fuses / different amplifier brands etc etc"

 

[Amir]

Personally, I would return both preamps

I also would return both preamps and back to my system to check why the contrast between two pre amps is little.

Properly setup Advanced playback systems will show you much more contrast between A vs B so deciding between A vs B is much more easy.

The decision between A vs B in a low performance system (low contrast) is not a good idea.

 

[tima]

I think we can rewrite the original post from this thread as follows
Thread 'An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/an-explanation-of-the-term-suspension-of-disbelief.37174/

Please note, I have made slight edits below. You will have to open them side by side in two separate windows to know the difference.
===
In the subjective hobby of high-end audio, "suspension of disbelief" refers to the phenomenon where an individual, lovingly known as an audiophile, experiences a level of immersion and emotional engagement in the music that goes beyond the technical aspects of the audio system based on the amount invested. It's a term borrowed from the world of literature and drama, where audiences willingly set aside their senses to fully immerse themselves in the narrative they post on the forum.

In the context of high-end audio, suspension of disbelief occurs when the listener becomes so engrossed in their equipment that they forget the live performance. Achieving this state often requires a highly expensive audio system.

When a listener achieves suspension of disbelief, they may perceive the sound more indifferently. This phenomenon is often associated with a feeling of being transported to the recording studio or concert hall, experiencing the nonchalance felt by those not interested in classical at the Vienna musikverein.

Audiophiles and enthusiasts often seek to attain suspension of disbelief and indifference as a benchmark for evaluating the quality of their audio setup, because only with such indifference can they be fully satisfied and believe. They invest in high-end audio equipment - a lot - to enhance the chances of achieving this heightened state of engagement. However, it's important to note that the experience of suspension of disbelief is highly subjective and may vary from person to person based on individual preferences, listening skills, and levels of indifference.

That is hilarious!

I don't care that I am no longer doing what I do not believe I am doing in the first place.

 

[PeterA]

I also would return both preamps and back to my system to check why the contrast between two pre amps is little.

Properly setup Advanced playback systems will show you much more contrast between A vs B so deciding between A vs B is much more easy.

The decision between A vs B in a low performance system (low contrast) is not a good idea.

I think in Ron’s hypothetical scenario, the differences between the two preamps are clearly heard. The issue is that the subject cannot determine which one he prefers given the different sonic attributes of each preamp. He clearly hears their differences, but he can not decide which one to keep and which one to send back. I would send them both back because in Ron‘s scenario, both preamps exhibit weaknesses.

 

[Lee]

In economics an indifference curve* is a graph showing different combinations of two goods that provide a consumer with the same level of satisfaction or utility. This means the consumer has no preference for one combination over another -- the consumer is “indifferent” between them.

Let's say you are evaluating in your system two line stage preamps. Both of them sound fantastic in your system.

One preamp is slightly more resolving and incisive and dynamic. The other preamp is slightly more "musical." While each preamp has slightly different strengths and weaknesses, you happily could live with either of them.

Each preamp gives you the same overall level of musical enjoyment, but in slightly different ways. So both preamps are, for you, on the same indifference curve, but they are at different points on the curve (different points on the graph).

How do you decide which preamp to buy, and which preamp to return? Where do you settle on this indifference curve?

*Indifference curve is a part of every basic microeconomics class. It is a simple concept which has a lot of explanatory power in many areas.

I had a similar discussion the other day on amplifiers, but it was bloom versus bass quality. I argued that you could have both.

For most things, I think the best components sound both musical and are highly resolving.

Th best course might be dealer loans where you try both over a weekend and find which one you most enjoy across a variety of music.

Note: setup will have an impact here. You really want it dialed in for the best quality evaluations.

 

[PeterA]

I had a similar discussion the other day on amplifiers, but it was bloom versus bass quality. I argued that you could have both.

For most things, I think the best components sound both musical and are highly resolving.

Th best course might be dealer loans where you try both over a weekend and find which one you most enjoy across a variety of music.

Note: setup will have an impact here. You really want it dialed in for the best quality evaluations.

Lee, I fully agree that one can find both, or a component that has fewer tradeoffs. It is definitely possible to be both musical/engaging and highly resolving. I also agree that set up is important. That is why I asked Ron if he played with speaker position/orientation during his current amplifier comparison. The amp/speaker combination should be optimized in a given room for proper evaluation, and that may mean a slight change in the speaker location and/or orientation for each amp, especially if one presentation is "brighter" as Ron described it.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ron had already good amplifiers .
He had the VTL monos amd also the VTL pre iirc .
JADIS is good too .

The " high freq issue" lays else where imo

 

[PeterA]

Ron had already good amplifiers .
He had the VTL monos amd also the VTL pre iirc .
JADIS is good too .

The " high freq issue" lays else where imo

That may be true, but Ron keeps switching amplifiers so for some reason, he’s not satisfied with something. He seems to be searching for a more satisfying sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The opening post is purely hypothetical. It has nothing to do with my system. I expect to be extremely happy with my selected preamp. If I felt I were making compromises on my preamp I would have kept looking.

Anyone thinking this was my oblique way of asking for advice is incorrect.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think your question is seriously flawed from the get go. If you are not considering the deal and the price. In my experience this is probably the most important factor to most people buying. Sorry, maybe sad but very very true.
In my personal opinion if they are both wrong , to me , I buy neither!

 

[Kingrex]

I think in Ron’s hypothetical scenario, the differences between the two preamps are clearly heard. The issue is that the subject cannot determine which one he prefers given the different sonic attributes of each preamp. He clearly hears their differences, but he can not decide which one to keep and which one to send back. I would send them both back because in Ron‘s scenario, both preamps exhibit weaknesses.

Doesn't every audio piece exhibit weakness. If its not live, it failed at achieving live and is flawed. And none achieve live so all are flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect audio component.

 

[Kingrex]

The opening post is purely hypothetical. It has nothing to do with my system. I expect to be extremely happy with my selected preamp. If I felt I were making compromises on my preamp I would have kept looking.

Anyone thinking this was my oblique way of asking for advice is incorrect.

Well you shot down my last comments. But I ask, was there a compromise on what you got? Does your gear trick you into your there. If not, what was the compromise? What does it lack?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well you shot down my last comments. But I ask, was there a compromise on what you got? Does your gear trick you into your there. If not, what was the compromise? What does it lack?

I don't think I hear a compromise with the Incito S. It really ticks all of my personal boxes. My mental decision process on the Incito S did not involve any weighing of compromises.

There was only one other preamp that I was curious about. A couple of well-known people very familiar with the Incito S in their own systems suggested that the exotic Zanden Chukoh preamp beats the Incito S according to my personal sonic cues. The Chukoh lists for €125,000. Even at full accommodation discount I'm not spending that much money on a preamp. So I did not pursue auditioning a Chukoh.

And don't forget I do have a value for money parameter, even if it has a pretty high ceiling. I actually think the Incito S is a good value. I think the Trafomatic Audio Lara is a great value.

 

[Kingrex]

I don't think I hear a compromise with the Incito S. It really ticks all of my personal boxes. My mental decision process on the Incito S did not involve any weighing of compromises.

There was only one other preamp that I was curious about. A couple of well-known people very familiar with the Incito S in their own systems suggested that the exotic Zanden Chukoh preamp beats the Incito S according to my personal sonic cues. The Chukoh lists for €125,000. Even at full accommodation discount I'm not spending that much money on a preamp. So I did not pursue auditioning a Chukoh.

And don't forget I do have a value for money parameter, even if it has a pretty high ceiling. I actually think the Incito S is a good value. I think the Trafomatic Audio Lara is a great value.

I did ask that question very personally. That's pertaining to a specific piece of equipment and your choice.
In a general sense though, isn't the premise of your thread saying that everything is a compromise? Nothing is perfect. Nothing is live. So what is it you lean towards or lean away from. Is that what you were trying to ask.

That really is a difficult question. When I had the Dartzeel, it was very easy to just sit back and listen to. But the Blade is way more resolving and detailed. Its like tape. I hear so many individual parts and pieces. Layered throughout the soundstage, and they're all individual, distinct and come to me without effort. But that detail comes with a bass response that is not enveloping like a warm blanket. The Dartzeel did that very well.
I feel the same about horns. They walk that line, for me.

In the end,I air guitar and drum, my head moves around and I dig all the detail of the Blade, so I am going fot detail and soundstage over liquidity and a fleshy body

 

[PeterA]

Doesn't every audio piece exhibit weakness. If its not live, it failed at achieving live and is flawed. And none achieve live so all are flawed. There is no such thing as a perfect audio component.

I am not saying any component is perfect. I am saying that there are noticeable trade-offs in Rons scenario. There exist components with fewer tradeoffs, even some, though short of being able to reproduce live music, sound truly excellent in a particular system/room context. Those are the ones that I would search for and I would return the other two in Ron's scenario. Have you never heard a component that rises above the rest in your experience, a component that you do not want to live without? They are out there for many of us. If you dwell on the imperfect, you may not find satisfaction.

 

[bonzo75]

exotic Zanden Chukoh preamp beats the Incito S according to my personal sonic cues. The Chukoh lists for €125,000. Even at full accommodation discount I'm not spending that much money on a preamp. So I did not pursue auditioning a Chukoh.

I had posted this pic earlier on the Taiko thread

Zanden Chukouh in centre