I have become bored with tonal, common practice classical music

[Folsom]

Maybe my first post should have been, “Have you heard of Bartok?”

 

[NorthStar]

I'm still waiting for the OP to elaborate further with his own music selections...old and new...tonal and atonal....some examples.

I would love to know if it was a gradual progression that led him to this new music listening state. The better I understand his experience (with some music examples) the better we can all closely share any similarities or not.

Edit: Typo...past tense of lead is led.

 

[Simon Moon]

Simon, can you give some examples of "new music and composers" you're enjoying recently in your music evolution?

I can dig what you're saying ...

Cheers,

Some examples:

Elliott Carter
Bruno Maderna
Thomas Ades
Magnus Lindberg
Peter Maxwell Davies
Joan Tower
Thea Musgrave
Harrison Birtwistle
Augusta Read Thomas
Penderecki
Ligeti
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Andrew Norman
Charles Wuorinen

And many others.

Alas the OP will not be indulging in the aforementioned Tchaikovsky since it is very “tonal” to quote his expression lol.

Yeah...

Even when I was still listening to a lot of tonal music (which wasn't that long ago), I was not a Tchaikovsky fan, at all.

 

[Al M.]

Some examples:

Elliott Carter
Bruno Maderna
Thomas Ades
Magnus Lindberg
Peter Maxwell Davies
Joan Tower
Thea Musgrave
Harrison Birtwistle
Augusta Read Thomas
Penderecki
Ligeti
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Andrew Norman
Charles Wuorinen

And many others.

Nice. From that list, I know and love music of:

Elliott Carter
Bruno Maderna
Magnus Lindberg
Peter Maxwell Davies
Harrison Birtwistle
Penderecki
Ligeti
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Charles Wuorinen

And as you say, there are many others.

Here is my Maxwell Davies page:
https://www.stockhausen-essays.org/peter_maxwell_davies.htm

 

[Cincy2]

I really wish I could enjoy modern classical music but I can't. I respect the talent and perseverance it takes to create it but I just can't connect emotionally with it. I have instead found refuge with various folk, jazz, blues and popular music selections when I need to go off the reservation. The emotional connection I can make with a well recorded (sometimes hard to find) album from those genres is the same as I can make with a Mozart, Bach or Beethoven for example. Think Chesky, Mapleshade, Verve, Opus3, Sigma etc.labels.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, romantic complexity. Recently I listened to Mahler's Seventh (CSO, Solti) and was blown away by how emotionally complex the narrative is in the fourth movement, Nachtmusik II (Night Music II). This was the first time that I listened for that carefully, it takes sone concentration. And the, at times even mocking, ambiguity of the Finale is always something to behold.

The whole 7th is excellent and under appreciated. There is so much brass melody in the first two movements

 

[bonzo75]

I really wish I could enjoy modern classical music but I can't. I respect the talent and perseverance it takes to create it but I just can't connect emotionally with it. I have instead found refuge with various folk, jazz, blues and popular music selections when I need to go off the reservation. The emotional connection I can make with a well recorded (sometimes hard to find) album from those genres is the same as I can make with a Mozart, Bach or Beethoven for example. Think Chesky, Mapleshade, Verve, Opus3, Sigma etc.labels.

I can't stand it. Since Simon Rattle took over LSO he plays so much modern classical, many a times the opening piece. I don't even clap at the end it is a total din.

 

[tima]

In-built Western need? I am culturally a Westerner too, but I don't have that need.

That's okay, Al I was talking about my self. Wrt Western classical music, it mostly does have resolution at some level: phrases, motifs, themes, movements - breathe in breathe out.. That fact has nothing to do with any given individual's preferences. Whether it is that way due to general preference or whether general preference is because of it, we are where we are. it's not a matter of correct vs incorrect.

 

[tima]

Elliott Carter
Bruno Maderna
Thomas Ades
Magnus Lindberg
Peter Maxwell Davies
Joan Tower
Thea Musgrave
Harrison Birtwistle
Augusta Read Thomas
Penderecki
Ligeti
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Andrew Norman
Charles Wuorinen

I have heard works by some of these names. How many of their compositions are pre-20th Century?

 

[Simon Moon]

I have heard works by some of these names. How many of their compositions are pre-20th Century?

I believe the only examples of pre 20th century, are some of Schoenberg's and Webern's earliest works.

Most of the rest on the list are living composers.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I have recently come to the conclusion, that I am no longer enjoying much classical music that is tonal.

As of late, whenever I put on a recording of tonal, common practice, classical music from any of the major composers, I almost always end it before it is finished, as I lose interest. I find myself always opting for, and getting much more involved, with atonal and dissonant music. Especially from the mid 20th century up through the present.

I am not sure I am exactly happy with this situation, since a large part of my collection is going unlistened to, and not being enjoyed. But on the other hand, I am discovering so much incredible new music and composers, that I don't feel I am missing out.

Hopefully I will regain my taste for tonal music sometime in the future, so I have even more music to enjoy.

With regards to other musical genres that I listen to (prog, jazz, fusion), I am not experiencing this 'atonal only' preference.

Simon I’d guess the answers in a large way lays in what it is about contemporary classical atonal music (AM) that is becoming a need for you. What it feeds you. The kinds of sensations and states that it takes you to.

More traditional and romantic classical tonal music (TN) is much more often researched when looking to the ways music is processed and the way the experience of it changes us. Exploration into AM and impacts on experience aren’t anywhere near as much studied.

Some of the ideas I’ve come across in the past look to the values of the new atonal music also having value as a novel experience that energetically charges and blasts away at old patterns.

The dissonance is also in cognitive terms experienced as an arousal. It’s lack of resolve creates a different cognitive relationship for us. Some find it exciting, others exhausting, some enjoy the sense of required cognitive mastering of a more conscious grasp on the background on the concept and its story and the underlying idea. To understand it more often requires specific knowledge of the spirit of the times and the lives of the composer and their individual conceptual approach in these newly (de)constructed compositional systems.

For others AM is not accessible itself and can’t be interpreted or extracted in the experience of listening alone as it abstracts rather than more direct telling through narrative or painting a more familiar scene. By AM turning its back on the familiar in an effort of framing new musical language with original forms and intent (so as to create and discover new ways of communicating) it’s underbelly is that when you talk a new language not too many will always be able to understand or connect (or at least connect deeply).

For me in many ways AM is just as much about idea as it is about content. It’s as much about knowing through an understanding and less about just knowing through feeling. Listening to AM I suggest is as every bit an individual an experience as is composing it. The listening reflects the self discovering nature of the concept. In some ways it is as isolating as being born into a new universe created at every turn. It is chaos theory. As comfortable as being ejected off a train without a map or the security of anything known in a country that has an unfamiliar and sensationally charged energetic language. After you get back on the train you may well be unsure what you have just experienced, it may not give you meaning but it definitely gave you experience.

Perhaps more traditional tonal forms of classical music may well simply lead more to shared experiences that recall points and moments and reflect more traditional cycles whereas AM does tend to be more caught in it’s invention and ideas.

From my experiences AM tends to lean to more constant and unexpected stimulation and TM to a cycle of feelings that are more completed as a digestive whole.

It’s a different form of nourishment and sensation. The shock of the new can be compelling but as in everything else in life it must lead somewhere. There is retention, experience and expectation. These temporal juxtapositions expect that things will change.

I hope you get from it what you need and that this is a good state for you though perhaps being locked in any one state of musical experience might ultimately not be ideally sustainable and lead to some loss of sense of the whole. Reason and purpose aren’t exactly the same things. Meaning gives a whole substance that allows for another layer of appreciation. If the meaning has to be consciously or actively discovered to be appreciated it suggests to me an early language rather than a mature one. This newness of the modernists was a cultural revolution and along with the reactionary post moderns a part of an establishing new (young) phase. Nothing stays locked in time. This may be completely appropriate to where you are currently at. Just trust in the way of it and enjoy it all I figure.

 

[NorthStar]

I've been exploring the short list of composers you mentioned Simon, since you posted it along with other musical stuff and genres ... thank you for that. It's a fascinating exposition.

 

[MadFloyd]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does AM and TM mean in the context of this thread?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does AM and TM mean in the context of this thread?

Just an adopted abbreviation (I have also seen these referred to this way in some scholarly writings on the topic) after Simon’s original post on differentiation between tonal and atonal music (ie TM v AM) in his desired listening. Have inserted a note to make it in some ways clearer (especially since I think TM could also be transcendental meditation as well as trade mark). Talking about why we listen to things can be interesting but thankfully just not as much value as in the listening itself.

 

[Al M.]

Simon I’d guess the answers in a large way lays in what it is about contemporary classical atonal music (AM) that is becoming a need for you. What it feeds you. The kinds of sensations and states that it takes you to.

More traditional and romantic classical tonal music (TN) is much more often researched when looking to the ways music is processed and the way the experience of it changes us. Exploration into AM and impacts on experience aren’t anywhere near as much studied.

Some of the ideas I’ve come across in the past look to the values of the new atonal music also having value as a novel experience that energetically charges and blasts away at old patterns.

The dissonance is also in cognitive terms experienced as an arousal. It’s lack of resolve creates a different cognitive relationship for us. Some find it exciting, others exhausting, some enjoy the sense of required cognitive mastering of a more conscious grasp on the background on the concept and its story and the underlying idea. To understand it more often requires specific knowledge of the spirit of the times and the lives of the composer and their individual conceptual approach in these newly (de)constructed compositional systems.

For others AM is not accessible itself and can’t be interpreted or extracted in the experience of listening alone as it abstracts rather than more direct telling through narrative or painting a more familiar scene. By AM turning its back on the familiar in an effort of framing new musical language with original forms and intent (so as to create and discover new ways of communicating) it’s underbelly is that when you talk a new language not too many will always be able to understand or connect (or at least connect deeply).

For me in many ways AM is just as much about idea as it is about content. It’s as much about knowing through an understanding and less about just knowing through feeling. Listening to AM I suggest is as every bit an individual an experience as is composing it. The listening reflects the self discovering nature of the concept. In some ways it is as isolating as being born into a new universe created at every turn. It is chaos theory. As comfortable as being ejected off a train without a map or the security of anything known in a country that has an unfamiliar and sensationally charged energetic language. After you get back on the train you may well be unsure what you have just experienced, it may not give you meaning but it definitely gave you experience.

Perhaps more traditional tonal forms of classical music may well simply lead more to shared experiences that recall points and moments and reflect more traditional cycles whereas AM does tend to be more caught in it’s invention and ideas.

From my experiences AM tends to lean to more constant and unexpected stimulation and TM to a cycle of feelings that are more completed as a digestive whole.

It’s a different form of nourishment and sensation. The shock of the new can be compelling but as in everything else in life it must lead somewhere. There is retention, experience and expectation. These temporal juxtapositions expect that things will change.

I hope you get from it what you need and that this is a good state for you though perhaps being locked in any one state of musical experience might ultimately not be ideally sustainable and lead to some loss of sense of the whole. Reason and purpose aren’t exactly the same things. Meaning gives a whole substance that allows for another layer of appreciation. If the meaning has to be consciously or actively discovered to be appreciated it suggests to me an early language rather than a mature one. This newness of the modernists was a cultural revolution and along with the reactionary post moderns a part of an establishing new (young) phase. Nothing stays locked in time. This may be completely appropriate to where you are currently at. Just trust in the way of it and enjoy it all I figure.

Very thought provoking post, thank you, Graham. I disagree with a lot in it, but it has led me to listen tonight to different music, TM and AM, in a new light. I may post some thoughts tomorrow.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Very thought provoking post, thank you, Graham. I disagree with a lot in it, but it has led me to listen tonight to different music, TM and AM, in a new light. I may post some thoughts tomorrow.

Thanks Al, it should be said that it is obviously a completely personal take on it and truthfully non-judgemental or set in any terms of any right or wrong. We share more appreciation of music than ever separates us and that is the beauty of sharing conversation with other music lovers is the constant unfolding of new perspectives that inspires us at venturing into other music and new ways of viewing things. I have journeyed through some good portion of contemporary classical composers listed earlier and have over time enjoyed both the dissonant and the consonant. I am currently settled in more simple and romantic melodic ways and am having an associated phase of old school tonal wanderlust... but never say never, I don’t expect anything to stay too static... even at my age lol.

 

[NorthStar]

I can't stand it. Since Simon Rattle took over LSO he plays so much modern classical, many a times the opening piece. I don't even clap at the end it is a total din.

I just don't get it. ...A sarcasm Ked?

 

[bonzo75]

I just don't get it. ...A sarcasm Ked?

No true. Too much noisy modern stuff for me playing at Barbican these days

 

[tima]

I'm not super keen on the words 'atonal music' because they tell us so little. Schoenberg didn't care for it. But people are using this term, so okay.

Thinking about this some more made my own experience obvious to me.
I've never slipped into a limbic state listening to atonal music.

 

[NorthStar]

No true. Too much noisy modern stuff for me playing at Barbican these days

Ok, I wasn't too sure so I decided to ask. And I'm not an expert on the latest general public trend about quality classical music recordings. Like any music genre there are better quality record labels for classical music, and better composers/directors and orchestras and hall venues.