If you believe this, then my only conclusion is that you are inexperienced at audio.
"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."
- Thread starter Gregadd
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If you believe this, then my only conclusion is that you are inexperienced at audio.
From a commercial/ dealer margin standpoint i d say the more expensive the better the speaker without exception 
Its all about coherence.
Large speakers / large horns have in general many units covering the freq range .
To blend all this into one becomes more complicated .
Id rather have a small neutral speaker that sounds coherent then a large /200 K plus system that is not , because it becomes unlistenable basically ( imprinting its signature over all kinds of music)
Its all about coherence.
Large speakers / large horns have in general many units covering the freq range .
To blend all this into one becomes more complicated .
Id rather have a small neutral speaker that sounds coherent then a large /200 K plus system that is not , because it becomes unlistenable basically ( imprinting its signature over all kinds of music)
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In my view you can get SOTA sound from a medium sized 3 way or 4 way speaker in a modest sized room ( 50 -100 K price range)
(200 K + is merely bragging , it says nothing)
That is if the speaker is coherent / neutral and covers the 20 - 20 khz freq range .
I d rather put more money ( 200 K +) in amplification and sources , then more money in speakers
(200 K + is merely bragging , it says nothing)
That is if the speaker is coherent / neutral and covers the 20 - 20 khz freq range .
I d rather put more money ( 200 K +) in amplification and sources , then more money in speakers
I have a couple sticks to throw on the pile.
One is that I don't think you need $200K to achieve that "big" sound everyone loves. A very high percentage of the big sound effect is proper speaker placement. They need to be in a place that engages the room and then finely tuned. Once this is done there will be wall to wall, floor to ceiling "soundstage". The other part of this is the sense of envelopment and space (venue) that comes from the bottome end. Look at the speakers that everyone says gives that "huge" presentation and note that all of them have massive woofers. So one could get a really great speaker for $50K and a couple of really good, super fast, subwoofers for $75K. As Jim Smith is fond of saying "subwoofers are about space not bass". I am starting to clearly see the error that we want to spend insane money on the main speakers and only maybe $10K at the most on a pair of subs and most are willing to spend far less than this. Then we wonder why things don't quite sound right.
So what does the added expense give? I think lower distortion. Look at the heroic efforts that manufactures like Rockport, Goebel, Wilson, Magico, YG etc are going through to eliminate cabinet resonance and diver distortion. They use very high quality crossover parts. All of this adds to the cost of the speaker.
One is that I don't think you need $200K to achieve that "big" sound everyone loves. A very high percentage of the big sound effect is proper speaker placement. They need to be in a place that engages the room and then finely tuned. Once this is done there will be wall to wall, floor to ceiling "soundstage". The other part of this is the sense of envelopment and space (venue) that comes from the bottome end. Look at the speakers that everyone says gives that "huge" presentation and note that all of them have massive woofers. So one could get a really great speaker for $50K and a couple of really good, super fast, subwoofers for $75K. As Jim Smith is fond of saying "subwoofers are about space not bass". I am starting to clearly see the error that we want to spend insane money on the main speakers and only maybe $10K at the most on a pair of subs and most are willing to spend far less than this. Then we wonder why things don't quite sound right.
So what does the added expense give? I think lower distortion. Look at the heroic efforts that manufactures like Rockport, Goebel, Wilson, Magico, YG etc are going through to eliminate cabinet resonance and diver distortion. They use very high quality crossover parts. All of this adds to the cost of the speaker.
I really don't know why you get off making such assumptions about your peers. That is unless you consider yourself above and beyond us.
If you don't have 200 grand speakers, you don't have 200 grand speakers. That is the answer. There are many reasons you may not want them or want them but are not willing to do what it takes physically and financially to make them work for you. That is all fine. It isn't like there aren't 200+ grand horns buddy and it isn't as if you would stick a cheapo SET amp with poor iron, tubes et al on these like priced speakers that don't have "complicated crossovers".
110db @ 15hz? Is this measurement published? With distortion specs? Just curious ... pretty amazing claim.
Please explain which 45, 46, 2a3 single ended amp requires 200k worth of iron, and what costs of the best single drivers around are? Then what are your costs of the best two way components together, i.e. woofer plus upper drivers with a simple first order crossover. Please add cost of components plus 10x margin to it it still won’t cost that much.
You will require more costs the more you complicate the design. That will just prove you don’t have experience with purer designs.
as for the five way horns that cost 400 and 500k, the TAD 4001 in them, for example, is less good than the 4003 that Leif has.
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Please explain why you assume you know how we’ve gotten where we are and what we do with our time. Please explain how you assume we do not have at least some experience in what you espouse. Please explain why it appears the path you’ve taken should be imposed on us by you.
Sorry, it is 108 dB from 14 Hz to 27 kHZ. Not that you’d notice the difference!
Devialet
www.devialet.com
In a speaker that weighs about 30 pounds, and can be carried by hand and costs about 3 grand or so, it’s a true breakthrough. Besides, it has a 5000 watt built in streaming digital amplifier. Plug into the wall, use your phone to stream high res music to it. It makes a mockery of a lot of high end speakers made today that cost 100x times more, require a forklift to move and boat anchor amplifiers to drive: Magico, Wilson, et al. are you listening? This is what a true breakthrough looks like.
...I have to say those little Devialet Phantom "eyeballs" do sound remarkable. They had a demo room, a glass-walled booth actually, four or five years ago in Penn Sta. or GC Sta. in NYC. A cute girl in a futuristic dress with an iPad was lighting the place up with music. Then I started noticing the things in airport bars around the globe. Would one tire of them as a dedicated speaker? Maybe, but they have a lot going on there. Very interesting.
I’d like to see a Magico Q9 or Wilson Alexandria reproduce 14 Hz at 108 dB. I suspect you’ll see smoke coming out of their cabinets.
If it's good it's good. All this philosophy is pointless.
If a good design cost a lot, it does. If it's complicated or simple it is. If it's bad it's bad. There are good and bad at ALL PRICES POINTS.
If a good design cost a lot, it does. If it's complicated or simple it is. If it's bad it's bad. There are good and bad at ALL PRICES POINTS.
I still remember the story of a speaker Mfr. who let it slip that his 'middle of the line' was his favorite sound wise. Edifice speakers are for those that have the gnosh, the space and perhaps a bit of monster truck grandiosity. Who doesn't like monster trucks, at least in theory?
You will need more radiating surface at low excursions to get sound that is clean, has linear dynamics and has realistic DB in a large space. It's unlikely that that will ever be entirely cheap, or not requiring more heroic hardwares, as opposed to having sound that is one or two of those but not the other. I imagine as you need all three of those attributes in a large space, you are going to want those large, expensive speakers, whether you believe the sound quality scales with cost or not.
You will need more radiating surface at low excursions to get sound that is clean, has linear dynamics and has realistic DB in a large space. It's unlikely that that will ever be entirely cheap, or not requiring more heroic hardwares, as opposed to having sound that is one or two of those but not the other. I imagine as you need all three of those attributes in a large space, you are going to want those large, expensive speakers, whether you believe the sound quality scales with cost or not.
My favorite factoid from this thread (highlight above). And it sounds rather ominous when followed by: "The software is not perfect." Kaboom.
All joking aside, I also admire innovation and re-thinking what is desired and what is doable. Of course, in the end it is about engaging with the music. That is certainly possible with a budget below $200k (at least for me and many posters), but I also enjoy reading about the journey folks take as they seek what is the ultimate (for them).
Have these measurements been verified independently. Its not like some manufacturers haven’t been found to have been a tad ‘Optimistic’ with their published figures.
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Because you said cheapo sets, transformers, and 200k in an inexperienced way. The best SETs are the lowest watts so they have the least amount of parts in them so they are the least expensive in cost of making.
Any inexperienced person can hear big amps with big speakers pump up the volume pump it up pump it up at any major hifi store, hifi show, and random audiophile. It takes experience to hear a very low watt set drive a speaker to full symphony. Given the small amount of speakers they can drive, you have to search. It won’t come easily
moreover, there are many talented people who can make way better than commercial speakers at way less price but that requires search.
Did not ask people to. Don’t expect you to. Doesn’t change the fact that people who think 200k plus speakers are better, lack experience on sonics or have incentive in propagating that idea.
people are free to spend just don’t say that those “sound better”.
In future, please post videos of 200k plus speakers you think are playing well. What records, music, and gear you select will say more about your experience than price tags.
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First of all show some respect for the people that make the electronics that allow Theatre speakers to work best in a home environment. Appreciate those that came before you who actually thought of resurrecting the SET designs to work with more contemporary drivers and horns instead of the electronics they were commercially used with. In case you didn't notice these are technologies from different eras and separated by as much as two decades. Appreciate the work they have done especially on the gain staging front to make this possible. Show some respect for the intrepid individuals in France and in Japan that spread the word that Hey this works. You can't even understand that Iron is the slang for output transformers and dislocated the 200 grand outside of the loudspeakers. Whuh?
The best SETs are the lowest watts so they have the least parts in them so they are the least expensive to make? Really? Ask Mish on the parts counts between an 45, a 2a3 and a 300B. Ask him how important the quality of the input and output transformers are to the final performance of that amplifier. You're a tube roller right? How important is the quality of the tube itself? The best NOS tubes get expensive because when the demand gets high so does the price. IF you can get them at all.
Again you assume I and others lack experience. I was playing with horns as a teenager. I didn't beg for a new bike for my 16th birthday like most kids, I asked for an active electronic crossover. My Dad picked up a unit made by Furman in the days before they transitioned to power products. Unlike you who might have experience in the form visiting people who have set up horn systems to THEIR liking, I have actual experience in setting up commercial horn systems for sound reinforcement both mobile and fixed for paying audiences. I have also set up excellent horn speakers in my own main listening room and I have even posted that here. I have set up only and exactly 2 systems anchored on 200k plus speakers BUT also countless systems anchored on loudspeakers a 10th of that or less to the likings of their owners not my own. Their liking because they should be the ones satisfied with their purchase not me.
Until you personally go through the SET/High Sensitivity journey yourself as opposed to vicariously through your hosts, in my mind you are in no position to pontificate. Perhaps then you will realize that the fewer the parts the more important the selection of each of these parts become because you will experience first hand on their effects on the full circuit from electronics to loudspeakers to ground. Perhaps you will realize how important this is because horns made for theaters rely on distance to the listener to smoothen their response in the zero crossing region, something you need to address through amplification because distance is something you no longer have in the home. You would have understood what I meant about not using cheapo caps, resistors, transformers and tubes resulting in a cheapo SET amp. Again would you use these in any horn speaker worth its salt especially the 200k horns?
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He thinks his taste for a certain type of sound should be the universal standard.
Let him pay for / assemble his own system and post a video to prove us all wrong
Let him pay for / assemble his own system and post a video to prove us all wrong
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By theatre horns not being for home environment you are strictly referring to big WE or bionor types. You can use Altecs in any large audio room that any other large speaker fits in. Same with pnoe which are not theatre horns but single driver that I referred to in my earlier post. The only rooms they won’t fit in, are rooms most medium to large speakers won’t.
I don’t know where you got the idea that I didn’t get iron was slang for transformer? You are going to need more once you go to bigger tubes for more power, was my point, less for the smaller tubes. Regarding tube rolling cost, there are quality amps that do not require expensive tubes. I even mentioned 46 in my earlier post. Someone wants to spend he can do with exotic 300b but as always it is not required.
i also don’t get why you brought in the point about showing respect to intrepid individuals, as many of my posts are giving credit to those who showed to me whatever I consider important. If you want to write drama to your readers feel free to bring up irrelevant stuff
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Drama Oh Lord. At least be a good ambassador if you're going to stand on a borrowed soap box. Take a little time to dig deeper and acknowledge the reasons SETs sound so good especially with high sensitivity drivers. I'll spell it out for you. Single ended Class A Bias No negative feedback. Use a pushpull amp of average quality and zero crossing distortion will be seriously audible even 5 meters away. I'll say it again, this was A-Ok in theatres because the distance masks this distortion. You will need very good amps with vanishing zero crossing distortion with high sensitivity speakers. That is why your hosts aren't using junk bin projects. I haven't even mentioned yet the equally important aspect of build execution. The best SET amps are gone over with very fine detail simply because in simple circuits noise is the enemy. Couple that with high sensitivity and that little bit of hum KILLS. The quality of iron is appreciated in the form of not just its bandwidth but crucially how quiet they are.
I did not say you cannot use a Theatre Horn at home. I said it is quality amplification dependent. When I say respect the people who make the electronics, I'm saying at least recognize their role in making home listening with these speakers not just possible but highly satisfying. Building these things is HARD. If a SET amp is expensive despite it having less parts you had better bet that the builder is charging what he feels is at least passable compensation for his LABOR and his aesthetics for the voicing. So, please don't make it look like you can just go straight to heaven just because you've got a SET/Horn system. There is a lot to sort out before the magic happens. If you are going to live on a watt every millivolt counts so much more, yet, the rewards await. Get going. You won't know if you've got that list of maybes in your signature right unless they are in your room Keddar, especially when it comes to the bass, it doesn't matter how many people you visit. Then again you can get lucky. I wouldn't bet the farm on that though.
I did not say you cannot use a Theatre Horn at home. I said it is quality amplification dependent. When I say respect the people who make the electronics, I'm saying at least recognize their role in making home listening with these speakers not just possible but highly satisfying. Building these things is HARD. If a SET amp is expensive despite it having less parts you had better bet that the builder is charging what he feels is at least passable compensation for his LABOR and his aesthetics for the voicing. So, please don't make it look like you can just go straight to heaven just because you've got a SET/Horn system. There is a lot to sort out before the magic happens. If you are going to live on a watt every millivolt counts so much more, yet, the rewards await. Get going. You won't know if you've got that list of maybes in your signature right unless they are in your room Keddar, especially when it comes to the bass, it doesn't matter how many people you visit. Then again you can get lucky. I wouldn't bet the farm on that though.
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