"If you don't have a $200k [speaker]..."

[microstrip]

I agree a system is ignorant . It has no intelligence and does not know what music it is playing.

We fully agree on this one.

IMO any system that is tailored to a singular type of music is a system that is colored.

Yes, but it is not what was being addressed. And many people dislike this idea, the high-end is simply coloring stereo according to preferences.

It may be nice to want to hear all your music at say Carnegie Hall but it all wasnt recorded or played there. SO if this is what you have you are choosing coloration. Of course if this is what you like then do it but I don't think anything that is colored on purpose is a great system.

You are addressing extreme coloration, again it is not what was being discussed.

Mike, having listened to your system and having played DJ for a couple of days it does all music well IMO. We played small and solo and large and full scale of different genres and it did it all.

No one questioned it.

 

[microstrip]

i absolutely appreciated what the ML3's did in my system. loved them even. they are special sounding. and understand how you view them.

but that is different (the particular case of ML3 verses 458/468) than equating to my current system lack of optimization for particular music.

Perhaps just semantics. I was using optimization in the strict sense. If something can be improved, it is not optimum.

in the past when you brought this optimization point up, you cited optimizing your system for particular Jordi Savall recordings. even for particular SACD's. i respect that and understand that. and if you believed those efforts did favor that music in your system. who am i to argue? but that does not mean i think my system works like that. or all others either.

No, I use some types of music as a tool for my biased optimization of my system. The Savall was particularly useful because it is extremely challenging and I was at the performance. As you know, my (impossible) aim is to reproduce the whole experience, including the visual experience we have at a life performance. Probably you have other priorities.

regarding the ML3 and darts, and optimization for say......as you mention........string quartets; my opinion is that there are certainly matters of preference, and particular aspects of the music, where the ML3 does more desirable things, goes farther down the road. and then other aspects where the 458 darts directly compared, but even more the 468 darts i got later, do other things better on this music. all relative to my system. no need to dive into the differences. but string quartets happen to be my most played genre of music, and my go-to choice above all others. so it's a big deal to me. given a choice, i'd choose the darts, in my system and room, for string quartets. and that is what i did. but would admit easily that to other ears, or in other systems, another choice might be made. and part of my viewpoint is my room and system development, too.

Ok.

we could just as easy bring up certain horn speakers, or large panels, or other tube amplifiers, all of which would bring a different strength to the table. might any of those inserted into my system cause certain music to be more optimized? maybe. maybe not. agree they would bring something different and likely very nice. does than mean my system is not optimized? i guess it depends on how you look at it. what does optimization mean? i think i know what it means. and it's not perfect, or very, very best.

i agree that many systems do lean toward one type of music or another, but not ALL systems do. many mature systems over a wide variety of gear and rooms, are very competent at most kinds of music. and the owners would not feel they had blind spots of music they could not fully enjoy.

my previous small room was special sounding, i used 75 watt tubed OTL's and loved it, but it was limited to medium to small scale music as far as what might be optimized. so i moved. took me 11 years in my new larger system to surpass the intimacy of that previous room and system. but it can be done.

An imaginary question. If your room was twice as large and your preference was for listening farther from your speakers would you assemble the same system?

 

[JackD201]

Not Mike but probably not. That system can easily handle double the volume starting with the loudspeakers and the current behind them. Other than professional/commercial options, not to many other choices either. I'm in the same boat and so are you. That boat being other options being more or less sideways moves.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

An imaginary question. If your room was twice as large and your preference was for listening farther from your speakers would you assemble the same system?

maybe.

if my oval shaped 29' Long x 21' Wide x 11' Tall room was twice as large, say 40' x 25' x 13'............and.......i had to sit well into the far field, i would likely (1)......ask Kevin Malmgren (EA Designer) whether he thought the MM7's could move enough air to command that room (i think they can), (2) be speaking to Gary Koh from Genesis about the big dipole multi towers, or (3) maybe consider Avant-Garde G3 Trio's. you would need a very big sound.

the dipoles and horns might operate better at farther listening distances. just speculation. i think the ultimate coherency of the Evolutions might not be as significant at farther listening distances (might be more significant).

no reason not to still use the darTZeel 468's, the larger the room the more the big darts would be the choice.

my opinion is that none of those choices would attain the musical immersion i now get, but might bring new other things. at shows when i hear huge rooms they sometimes succeed, but they never have the musical touch and holographics of a better sized room. just too much room to energize causes loss of precision. my expectations are very high for an entirely complete soundstage.

and honestly i'm really guessing about a room that size, never set up a system in that sort of space. never really even thought about it.

 

[JackD201]

Thank you for explaining Jack. Yes, all well regarded by enthusiasts, I was just not sure it was from the mainstream press. The 3012R was quickly dismissed as the SME V was released and celebrated, but not by those who compared the two on a good system.

It is interesting to see what happens to the availability of some of this stuff after people hear it and discuss it. Part of me wishes the only discussion was of the latest and greatest, so the best from the past would still be readily available.

The SME V was and remains no slouch either. Mainstream press survives on news and the root word of news is new? LOL

Whatever the case there will always be those products that stand the test of time later to be considered classic or even legendary. Owners of such gear are fortunate. Nishikawa-san , rest in peace friend, routinely showed with a 3012R and a Phantom Elite and those two arms while not identical were certainly a match as good as Roberto Duran and Sugar Ray Leonard.

Albert would always say, it doesn't mean just because I have a new model that your old one is suddenly trash. It is still the same speaker you loved. I agree with this and am actually working on reacquiring a pair I let go of 10 years ago to put in my provincial home. That doesn't mean I think that that is better than my current speakers either. All it means is that my value judgements are made on case to case basis' based on performance criteria in turn based on physical constraints.

An unstressed system is a better performing system. That just might be my mantra. We had a member here with like 5 systems, all WILDLY different in his mansion by a gorgeous Italian Lake. That might just be my fantasy.

 

[Robh3606]

I doubt anyone likes speakers that are not good at voices. But midrange is easiest to get right. Electrostats, ribbons, old tannoys, various horns, some cones, all do voices well. Sure some don’t either. Beryllium horn drivers sound quite like electrostats with voices, with more nuance.

But doing voices well does not necessarily mean they can also do other things well, which require more cross frequency integration. Voice is just the starting, basic

Hello

I agree and disagree. The music lives in the midrange and I can tolerate an issue at the extremes but not in the midrange, I don't think most speakers get it right just the opposite. Between poor driver integration, directivty issues and crossover points chosen, there are many that just don't make the cut.

That said I was drawn to speakers that got it right. Didn't say that was the only criteria.

I used a Urie 811C as my center channel for years. The integration was seamless. I have a pair of 4344's and my Array 1400's clean their clock. Not saying the 4344's are terrible I love them but the newer drivers and design criteria best them IMHO. Even the magical 10's can't compete.

Rob

 

[JackD201]

On the subject of optimization, personally I think of it this way. First deal with the fundamentals, noise and acoustics. From there it becomes very personal and the goalposts may shift a little over time.

For someone like Peter having everything sound pleasing is optimal for him. For Elliot it is about straight up delivery with as little editorializing as possible. While I lean more in Elliot's direction, I can't quite live on a day to dat basis with such strict standards. There is music I can not for sentimental reasons throw to the curb because they were poorly done. So optimal FOR ME would be to add a touch of color here by way of cartridge choice or (thankfully for the thoughtful design of my loudspeakers) tweak the frequency response usually by padding the front and rear tweeter arrays and maybe the subwoofer crossover to make the poor, usually thin and bright recordings closer to norm.

I've been accused by traditional audio guys of cheating LOL

I don't care

 

[microstrip]

(...) The 3012R was quickly dismissed as the SME V was released and celebrated, but not by those who compared the two on a good system. (...)
.

I have owned and compared both and preferred the SME V.

In fact SME3012r are abundant in the used market and stay there for long times, used SME V's are rare and since SME ceased selling them without a turntable prices rose significantly.

Disclaimer - I have an used boxed SME 3012R and I will very happily exchange if for a SMEV in similar condition!

 

[PeterA]

On the subject of optimization, personally I think of it this way. First deal with the fundamentals, noise and acoustics. From there it becomes very personal and the goalposts may shift a little over time.

For someone like Peter having everything sound pleasing is optimal for him. For Elliot it is about straight up delivery with as little editorializing as possible. While I lean more in Elliot's direction, I can't quite live on a day to dat basis with such strict standards. There is music I can not for sentimental reasons throw to the curb because they were poorly done. So optimal FOR ME would be to add a touch of color here by way of cartridge choice or (thankfully for the thoughtful design of my loudspeakers) tweak the frequency response usually by padding the front and rear tweeter arrays and maybe the subwoofer crossover to make the poor, usually thin and bright recordings closer to norm.

I've been accused by traditional audio guys of cheating LOL

I don't care

Jack, having everything sound pleasing is not my intention or my goal or what I value. I would’ve stopped years ago if that was as far as I wanted to go. I do not know what I wrote to give you that impression. My goal is much greater than that.

 

[XV-1]

This is where we differ. I want my system (not just speakers) to sound good on all the music I play, and also music I do not. Friends come over with their records of stuff I do not like. It still sounds good to me and more importantly to them.

Jack, having everything sound pleasing is not my intention or my goal or what I value. I would’ve stopped years ago if that was as far as I wanted to go. I do not know what I wrote to give you that impression. My goal is much greater than that.

 

[DasguteOhr]

View attachment 115232

I love corner horns only 3 watt for 114db spl

Audio Technik GmbH

Audio Technik GmbH, Herstellung und Vertrieb von Lautsprechern

www.lowther.de

 

[bonzo75]

I love corner horns only 3 watt for 114db spl

Audio Technik GmbH

Audio Technik GmbH, Herstellung und Vertrieb von Lautsprechern

www.lowther.de

that picture was the Sub for the stacked quads

 

[JackD201]

Jack, having everything sound pleasing is not my intention or my goal or what I value. I would’ve stopped years ago if that was as far as I wanted to go. I do not know what I wrote to give you that impression. My goal is much greater than that.

You mentioned saying everything sounds good so maybe I assumed too much that the system might be very forgiving.

 

[DasguteOhr]

that picture was the Sub for the stacked quads

I know its a horn too, a normal sub its too slow for quads always sounds like limping and dragging a leg.

 

[PeterA]

You mentioned saying everything sounds good so maybe I assumed too much that the system might be very forgiving.

Jack and XV-1,

I have a very long thread about the goals of my system and it continues to improve. Good is different from pleasing. I get pleasing from my truck radio on all kinds of music.

The most natural sound possible is the goal. That is the most like the sound of real instruments and voices as possible on all genres.

I say “good” which means by my standards. No one likes the term natural sound so I was simply trying to be less contentious.

I do not think of the system as sounding “forgiving“. Every recording sounds different. I don’t have a lot of 80s Pop rock music so perhaps I don’t have a lot of bad sounding recordings.

 

[bonzo75]

I have owned and compared both and preferred the SME V.

In fact SME3012r are abundant in the used market and stay there for long times, used SME V's are rare and since SME ceased selling them without a turntable prices rose significantly.

Disclaimer - I have an used boxed SME 3012R and I will very happily exchange if for a SMEV in similar condition!

FR 64s will be better than both, as well as SAEC 407 or Dynavector, among the old arms

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have owned and compared both and preferred the SME V.

In fact SME3012r are abundant in the used market and stay there for long times, used SME V's are rare and since SME ceased selling them without a turntable prices rose significantly.

Disclaimer - I have an used boxed SME 3012R and I will very happily exchange if for a SMEV in similar condition!

The SME V works pretty fine with vdh ,lyra delos maybe or mm cartrige with agile sound. Eff. Mass 10.5g
unsuitable for low-impedance heavy cartridges 0.6ohm resistance internal wiring. Magnesium tonearms dampen very strongly, so cartridges with a lot of high-frequency energy are more likely. an all-purpose weapon is rather not.