Impact

[RogerD]

Interesting suggestion, Roger. However, to be clear, I am NOT talking about the speaker's or the system's ability to reproduce volume. An old friend of mine...a physics prof, once told me that it ONLY takes 15watts to fill a church.
While I'm sure he's right about that, ( I'm not so sure as to what we would be filling it with.. ). The point is that to reproduce the impact of these instruments may not take power or multi driver's, IMO. The question is what does it take??...since
really NOTHING I have heard even comes that close, truth be told.

Hi Davey,

If a THX Cinema system can't come close then I think it is impossible. For years,even back in the 1930's sound engineers used high sensitivity horns in multiple configs with moderate power. IIRC the Ampex system designed for Michael Todd used 4 speakers and Hazard Reeves used 5 or 6 speakers for his Cinerama system. Anyway I think you must move a lot of air to create the "impact" you desire. Now whether that is done with 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 drivers or more I don't know as long as the size of the sound wave is large enough. I have a friend that installed a hartley 24 inch driver slot loaded into the crawl space of his house. A good digital master recording of a drum solo sounded like a gun shot and this was many years ago. I think you must move air to have "impact" it's just physics. How you accomplish that is open for discussion and I think a good one at that.

I have a recording done in HDCD by my friend Charlie Richardson who recorded the Navy and Marine Corp band and that recording is the best I have heard. I can probably get closer than I would think,but I have 4000W and probably....well 50 inches of sub and 6 speakers to do it....25 drivers in all.

Somebody's idea of what it takes....

 

[mep]

How about the fact that instruments and singers in the flesh (or wood, metal, ivory, etc.) are three dimensional and radiate sound in all directions plus the fact they are literally life-sized vs. stereo systems that are not three-dimensional and in many cases you are trying to reproduce a grand piano through 5"-6" driver.

 

[RogerD]

Davey,

Let's take another path. In my experience a low noise ultra low distortion system will produce a better reproduction of the original event. Now not to stir the pot because this subject has produced volumes of debate,but given that in fact the distortion is low enough there is plenty of information in a recording to reproduce the event.

 

[RogerD]

How about the fact that instruments and singers in the flesh (or wood, metal, ivory, etc.) are three dimensional and radiate sound in all directions plus the fact they are literally life-sized vs. stereo systems that are not three-dimensional and in many cases you are trying to reproduce a grand piano through 5"-6" driver.

Using psychoacoustics a 3D soundstage is possible. Is it "live".....well in reality no, but the illusion can be virtual reality.

 

[853guy]

...what do we believe is the primary factor in our system that is holding this aspect back....the room( A major culprit , IMO), the speed of our driver's, the ability of the amps to react quickly enough, the recording ( another major possibility...I have NEVER heard any recording that completely gets this aspect of reproduction correct)...OR something entirely different? Thoughts....

Actually, I think Western Electric nailed "impact" in about 1931 via the 15a/555 with 18" Jensen electrodynamic drivers in an open baffle. The 15a/555 combo by itself could produce 118dB per watt at one meter on axis, and went from 80Hz to about 6.5kHz. The Jensen's took it down to about 50-ish, and it was all hooked up a pair of WE 46C amps producing a lowly two watts.

Now, we kind of have an inverted ethos where the amp puts out 2000 watts and the speakers are four and five-way ported enclosures with crossovers with soda-can sized caps resulting in gross decreases in sensitivity and efficiency, and then... we add subs.

As a gross generalisation, a kick drum - say, a 22"x16" with a ported front head - will produce a fundamental somewhere around 60-100Hz depending on tuning, head selection, muffling, and whether the drummer plays on or off the head. In mixing or tracking (or both), particularly for rock, there'll usually be a boost somewhere around the fundamental, and a big cut where the second and third-order harmonics lie (anywhere from 120Hz to 400Hz). For more aggressive styles of music, there'll also usually be a boost around 2.5kHz (or anywhere up to 8kHz) for beater definition (or "click") and a de-esser to take away cymbal bleed around 12kHz. There'll also be a bunch of parallel and/or side-chain compression, and possibly even a sample (or two) mixed in for sub-harmonic lows or greater "punch". Sometimes, the "raw" kick sound is duplicated and mixed in with a more heavily compressed and EQ'd one. In some cases during mixdown the entire recorded kick track is scrapped and "replaced" with samples gridded to a click. This happens more than you might think. (The bass usually receives EQ counter to that of the kick drum, boosting where the kick is scooped and vice-versa. Most mix engineers either choose the kick drum or the bass guitar as the "bottom" of the mix, which defines most of the above).

So, much of modern music production is actually aimed at taking away "life". That is, in this instance, the immediate and visceral sound of that kick drum un-miked as played by the actual human being - and replacing it with a series of sophisticated sublimations, that, while more palatable to our modern way of life, nevertheless are only ever spectres of approximation, utterly devoid of "life".

A little like our hi-fi systems.

 

[RogerD]

Actually, I think Western Electric nailed "impact" in about 1931 via the 15a/555 with 18" Jensen electrodynamic drivers in an open baffle. The 15a/555 combo by itself could produce 118dB per watt at one meter on axis, and went from 80Hz to about 6.5kHz. The Jensen's took it down to about 50-ish, and it was all hooked up a pair of WE 46C amps producing a lowly two watts.

Now, we kind of have an inverted ethos where the amp puts out 2000 watts and the speakers are four and five-way ported enclosures with crossovers with soda-can sized caps resulting in gross decreases in sensitivity and efficiency, and then... we add subs.

As a gross generalisation, a kick drum - say, a 22"x16" with a ported front head - will produce a fundamental somewhere around 60-100Hz depending on tuning, head selection, muffling, and whether the drummer plays on or off the head. In mixing or tracking (or both), particularly for rock, there'll usually be a boost somewhere around the fundamental, and a big cut where the second and third-order harmonics lie (anywhere from 120Hz to 400Hz). For more aggressive styles of music, there'll also usually be a boost around 2.5kHz (or anywhere up to 8kHz) for beater definition (or "click") and a de-esser to take away cymbal bleed around 12kHz. There'll also be a bunch of parallel and/or side-chain compression, and possibly even a sample (or two) mixed in for sub-harmonic lows or greater "punch". Sometimes, the "raw" kick sound is duplicated and mixed in with a more heavily compressed and EQ'd one. In some cases during mixdown the entire recorded kick track is scrapped and "replaced" with samples gridded to a click. This happens more than you might think. (The bass usually receives EQ counter to that of the kick drum, boosting where the kick is scooped and vice-versa. Most mix engineers either choose the kick drum or the bass guitar as the "bottom" of the mix, which defines most of the above).

So, much of modern music production is actually aimed at taking away "life". That is, in this instance, the immediate and visceral sound of that kick drum un-miked as played by the actual human being - and replacing it with a series of sophisticated sublimations, that, while more palatable to our modern way of life, nevertheless are only ever spectres of approximation, utterly devoid of "life".

A little like our hi-fi systems.

I can't disagree totally but 118db horns do have their draw backs, I think when using horns the simpler the better,but I am going to use 3 class A 300B amps and see how that works. The WE stuff has become legendary and prices to reflect that.

 

[LL21]

The resonance of the kick drum head after it is struck may be somewhere between 35-50Hz, but the initial impact of the mallet against the head is at least one octave, probably two octaves below that. Yes, I mean around 8 Hz as the head is depressed by the mallet for one or two cycles before it resonates at 35-50 Hz.

OK! Now I know why I keep focusing so hard on the sub for kick drums and other low-end bass...I know there is something different intuitively from my personal experiences with studying piano and also live performances with bands. Thanks for that...good to know.

 

[DaveyF]

So, we are saying that multiple low freq drivers with large excursion ability is the key?? I'm not certain that is correct, as the systems that I have heard that typify that set-up ( usually horns with multiple large woofers) are not really that close to the live event. OTOH, they do seem to portray this aspect better than the other technologies. However, the 'immediacy" or the "impact" resolution really is missing on all the systems that I have heard. So much so, that I am now of the opinion that this aspect is the one delineator that sets aside the best systems from sounding closer to the 'live' event.

 

[RogerD]

So, we are saying that multiple low freq drivers with large excursion ability is the key?? I'm not certain that is correct, as the systems that I have heard that typify that set-up ( usually horns with multiple large woofers) are not really that close to the live event. OTOH, they do seem to portray this aspect better than the other technologies. However, the 'immediacy" or the "impact" resolution really is missing on all the systems that I have heard. So much so, that I am now of the opinion that this aspect is the one delineator that sets aside the best systems from sounding closer to the 'live' event.

I bet Basspig would have some opinions on this,but I haven't seeen him around lately.

Also there are other kinds of impacts associated with live music other than the visceral impact of low frequency. How about the waft of a saxophone or the weight and power of a large chior. Indeed the very best systems might give better than a glimpse,but all the parts would have to be of exceptional quality.

p.s. Nobody ever talks about speed in a preamp.....now that is something.

 

[DaveyF]

I bet Basspig would have some opinions on this,but I haven't seeen him around lately.

Also there are other kinds of impacts associated with live music other than the visceral impact of low frequency. How about the waft of a saxophone or the weight and power of a large chior. Indeed the very best systems might give better than a glimpse,but all the parts would have to be of exceptional quality.

p.s. Nobody ever talks about speed in a preamp.....now that is something.

All very true, Roger. BTW, I'm not just talking about the visceral impact of low frequency; I'm also talking about the impact, for example, of a stick hitting a rim of a snare, etc.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Daveyf

Curious how you can say that as it most cases they are the what's actually used in the first place. I see it as lots of driver area is needed so for a given spl you have minimal driver excursions. I have 2 15's one sub woofer the other as a mid-bass driver, a 10" midrange and compression driver up top and with music at any tolerable level the drivers are barely breaking a sweet.

I'm also talking about the impact, for example, of a stick hitting a rim of a snare, etc.

All you need are high quality drivers with big motors and low moving mass. It's not all that hard to get the visceral feeling though the whole range. Go listen to some old school large format monitors. You can get down right tactile with them and rim shots can make you flinch.

Rob

 

[rbbert]

How about the fact that instruments and singers in the flesh (or wood, metal, ivory, etc.) are three dimensional and radiate sound in all directions plus the fact they are literally life-sized vs. stereo systems that are not three-dimensional and in many cases you are trying to reproduce a grand piano through 5"-6" driver.

I think this is only partly true. Singers definitely, and most instruments as well, are clearly directional, not omnidirectional. That doesn't mean there isn't some sound going in all directions, but that's also true for most speakers.

 

[DaveyF]

Hello Daveyf

Curious how you can say that as it most cases they are the what's actually used in the first place. I see it as lots of driver area is needed so for a given spl you have minimal driver excursions. I have 2 15's one sub woofer the other as a mid-bass driver, a 10" midrange and compression driver up top and with music at any tolerable level the drivers are barely breaking a sweet.



All you need are high quality drivers with big motors and low moving mass. It's not all that hard to get the visceral feeling though the whole range. Go listen to some old school large format monitors. You can get down right tactile with them and rim shots can make you flinch.

Rob

Rob,
I have never heard any home system ( or pro system) with "high quality drivers with big motors and low moving mass" that can portray anything BUT a marginal facsimile of the real thing. IF you listen to the real and then the reproduced, IMHO there is a chasm of difference. Obviously, YMMV.

 

[Robh3606]

I have never heard any home system ( or pro system) with "high quality drivers with big motors and low moving mass" that can portray anything BUT a marginal facsimile of the real thing. IF you listen to the real and then the reproduced, IMHO there is a chasm of difference. Obviously, YMMV.

I guess you are missing my point. The PA system is the "real thing" for most types of music. In most cases live music is amplified. Any set-up that is amplified can obviously be scaled down to a home system using Pro drivers that can do a very good job of replicating the original YMMV

As far as the live expereince well I would agree nothing beats the real thing but I thought this thread was about reproducing the physical impact of a live amplified show. If the original was amplified then the only barrier is going to be the max spl levels.

Rob

 

[Bill Hart]

Not to be facetious, but you want 'real,' hire some musicians to come play. Most of them could use the work and you'd be doing them a solid, to boot. Have a party, hire a killer band.
Only downside I know of (aside from modest cash outlay, particularly if you have some friends chip in) is that musicians are always hungry.(unless they are on drugs, in which case, you don't want them - so it is a good thing that they are hungry). The upside, in my experience, is that they aren't terribly picky about food- feed 'em anything, and it's the best meal they ever had.
I think one of the first home audio systems, before there were standardized media for common folk, were orchestrions. Ever heard or seen one? Very cool. Giant wall sized mechanical monsters, often housed in elaborate wooden case work, driven by punchhole discs, or other 'music box' type 'source' material, that contained entire an entire orchestra's worth of instruments, mechanically and pneumatically activated. Ditto on the reproducing piano, which was more than a player piano; it was a mechanism that enabled the piano to reproduce the nuances of the particular performance, such that a Gershwin could have cut the roll for Rhapsody in Blue and you could listen to his phantom performance on your Steinway at home. This is the real 'steam punk' of audio. Pre- electronic.

 

[DaveyF]

I guess you are missing my point. The PA system is the "real thing" for most types of music. In most cases live music is amplified. Any set-up that is amplified can obviously be scaled down to a home system using Pro drivers that can do a very good job of replicating the original YMMV

As far as the live expereince well I would agree nothing beats the real thing but I thought this thread was about reproducing the physical impact of a live amplified show. If the original was amplified then the only barrier is going to be the max spl levels.

Rob

Actually, I was talking about unamplified instruments. The marching band that I heard had tremendous "impact". This same type of "impact" is also evident when listening to any "live" concert band in a hall. This presentation ( of impact) is something that I have NEVER heard reproduced, even closely, by ANY home audio system.

 

[GaryProtein]

I guess you are missing my point. The PA system is the "real thing" for most types of music. In most cases live music is amplified. Any set-up that is amplified can obviously be scaled down to a home system using Pro drivers that can do a very good job of replicating the original YMMV

As far as the live expereince well I would agree nothing beats the real thing but I thought this thread was about reproducing the physical impact of a live amplified show. If the original was amplified then the only barrier is going to be the max spl levels.

Rob

It's REALLY difficult [impossible?] to reproduce a live amplified show in the home, especially when they are pushing 130 dB.

Likewise, it is probably impossible to reproduce a marching band with twenty snare drummers beating away.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Gary

130db at your seat in an indoor venue?? At the Beacon or Wesbury Music Fair as examples, don't think so. That's listen for a half hour and go deaf levels. I would say more in the upper 100's to maybe 120db peak. What's the max alowed by law in say NYC.

Rob

 

[GaryProtein]

Hello Gary

130db at your seat in an indoor venue?? At the Beacon or Wesbury Music Fair as examples, don't think so. That's listen for a half hour and go deaf levels. I would say more in the upper 100's to maybe 120db peak. What's the max alowed by law in say NYC.

Rob

I didn't know there were any laws regarding maximum volume levels at a performance.

A friend of mine in the audio business who has done systems for well known rock stars and theaters has told me of instances in private clubs on Long Island and private recording studios in NYC where the sound was in the 120-130 dB range. It is no secret why so many rock stars are practically deaf. He didn't say if it was 130 dB at the speaker or at your seat. He did say that he wore ear protection.

 

[DaveyF]

Guys, i'm NOT talking about sheer volume....130db or 100db or?? I'm talking along the lines of what Mep stated.."While we were waiting to be seated, we were in the bar area which happened to have a small jazz combo playing and the drummer had the smallest drum kit I have ever seen with the smallest kick drum I have ever seen. I was like maybe 3' away from them and the drum kit was knocking me down it was so powerful. The sheer energy, intensity, and the SPLs/power that you hear when instruments are played live are not the same when played back over a recording."
This is more aligned to what I am trying to describe as "impact". You have to hear it to really get it. NO system comes anywhere near close to reproducing this IMHO. Question is again, what is the underlying factor that we are clearly missing in our present day systems, that stops us from being able to reproduce that