Introducing the New HiFi Miser Forum-As discussed by Andre Marc

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Mike Lavigne

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I'm a little late to this discussion and skimmed thru the posts.

I don't defend Andre's choice of words in the title or his heated responses. but attacking the 'alleged' technical shortcomings of gear, particularly gear which is newly introduced to us, or introduced to us by someone familiar to us, is just bad manners and will tear apart the community.

and then if we allow first posters to swoop down and take pot shots at this 'fresh meat' then shame on us.

is that the kind of neighborhood we want????

there has to be a bit of respect and presumption of the possibility that whatever kind of gear it might be, that we have interest in learning about it before we pass judgment.

I lay a significant amount of the responsibility for this trend on Amir. why beat around the bush? he dives right in for easy pickings.....no matter his contrary rational. it's his DNA clearly. and as we go farther down that road it's more and more who we are.

today I posted about tube rolling.

you know what's great. Amir and Blizzard don't know ducky about tubes so they stayed the hell away.
 

Blizzard

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I'm a little late to this discussion and skimmed thru the posts.

I don't defend Andre's choice of words in the title or his heated responses. but attacking the 'alleged' technical shortcomings of gear, particularly gear which is newly introduced to us, or introduced to us by someone familiar to us, is just bad manners and will tear apart the community.

and then if we allow first posters to swoop down and take pot shots at this 'fresh meat' then shame on us.

is that the kind of neighborhood we want????

there has to be a bit of respect and presumption of the possibility that whatever kind of gear it might be, that we have interest in learning about it before we pass judgment.

I lay a significant amount of the responsibility for this trend on Amir. why beat around the bush? he dives right in for easy pickings.....no matter his contrary rational. it's his DNA clearly. and as we go farther down that road it's more and more who we are.

today I posted about tube rolling.

you know what's great. Amir and Blizzard don't know ducky about tubes so they stayed the hell away.

Tube rolling is just another "Hack" is it not? Or since it's external, does this mean it's not considered a "hack" anymore?
 

microstrip

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We never said it was a POS or anything remotely resembling this. We said the heatsink is upside down and that may shorten the life of the capacitors. If that means it is a POS then we have do a lot more education for the membership on that point. None of what we said is proclamation. They were statements based on years of experience and repairing countless amplifiers.

I also post a link to a repair technician who had one of their amps to repair and he went on 100 times more than us on use of chinese no name parts. So if possession is required, he had it. And agreed with us armchair engineers. :) See http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ker-It-s-Bitch&p=353137&viewfull=1#post353137

As engineers we can spot unorthodox, interesting and poor designs from looking at a picture. This is why everyone in the world takes off the top of electronics from iPhone to their DAC and posts it online. We have to be one heck of an outlier to make that a bad thing to do.

That aside, everyone can ignore our posts. I ignore many posts that go against my understanding of audio. You don't see me go and curse people.


That is no evidence without knowing how loud he was playing and he knew what to listen for. A point I was going to demonstrate further but he had no interest in that technical discussion.


Amir,

Sorry to say but IMHO your post is a distorted view of the events. Your generalizations are misleading, and you present a wrong idea of engineers. Engineers use deep knowledge and real factual data to support their conclusions, the do not insinuate possibilities. They take MTBF seriously. It is extremely easy to find support for one's positions using google and picking a few sentences. Your appreciation was systematically ironic and insinuating, something an engineer is not expected to do.

Many european audio magazines include technical descriptions of the equipment, showing internal photos. If they find something special to say they give factual data, the brand and characteristics of the components. "Chinese" is not a brand since long.

Sometimes it is not the thinks that are said, it is the way they are said. It is why engineers must be formal and straight. If we have doubts we should try to research them before posting. In this case commenting on reliability without referring to the real internal temperature seems unacceptable .

BTW, I am not defending the amplifier or its building technique. Just criticizing the methodology used to post about it.
 

microstrip

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Tube rolling is just another "Hack" is it not? Or since it's external, does this mean it's not considered a "hack" anymore?

It depends on manufacturer terms of service and warranty. When you buy the product you are accepting its terms.
 

Blizzard

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I think one angle nobody's been looking at this from is, who's want's audio gear that's built to last nowadays anyways? The idea is to keep changing gear continuously. This keeps the market strong, and audiophiles from getting bored. If the components are built cheap enough, then it's also cheap for the manufacturer to repair as well. This is beneficial for the bottom line. So building cheap is a win win for everyone.
 

Ron Party

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Reading this thread, I'm reminded of one of the rock anthems of my youth:

Battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everyone's wrong
People speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind

Yeah, stop children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down


Andre, come back. I miss your music suggestions. Espers comes to mind. What a great band!
 

Blizzard

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It depends on manufacturer terms of service and warranty. When you buy the product you are accepting its terms.

I would never buy a component that's been known to have either internal or external "hacks" unless they were preformed by the factory. Who knows if the tubes were properly tested before the install. This is risky business.
 

DaveyF

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I think one angle nobody's been looking at this from is, who's want's audio gear that's built to last nowadays anyways? The idea is to keep changing gear continuously. This keeps the market strong, and audiophiles from getting bored. If the components are built cheap enough, then it's also cheap for the manufacturer to repair as well. This is beneficial for the bottom line. So building cheap is a win win for everyone.


:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 

Blizzard

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Building things cheaply is the way to do things today. It keeps money moving and people with ADD from getting bored. Beneficial for all.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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I think one angle nobody's been looking at this from is, who's want's audio gear that's built to last nowadays anyways? The idea is to keep changing gear continuously. This keeps the market strong, and audiophiles from getting bored. If the components are built cheap enough, then it's also cheap for the manufacturer to repair as well. This is beneficial for the bottom line. So building cheap is a win win for everyone.
I don't want cheap and I don't do cheap. I buy value and reliability and have done a good job doing so. I change gear only when it provides an improvement.
 

Blizzard

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I don't want cheap and I don't do cheap. I buy value and reliability and have done a good job doing so. I change gear only when it provides an improvement.

It seems like this is the way the world is going. Planned obsolescence, and poor build quality. More profitable to allocate these dollars to marketing instead, as most don't know the difference anyways. "Mystique" is always a better seller than actual quality.
 

853guy

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Well, I have also read just about every thread title on this forum since inception and I had a double take when I saw that before clicking on it. Even if you think it is OK, it is not how industry people should conduct themselves.

Long time ago I took a sexual harassment class. The core message that has stayed with me is this: whether something is offensive is up to the person hear/experiencing it, not the person saying/doing it. In this case, the choice of phrasing was poor and unprofessional and 853 guy expressed it. The answer to that as a minimum should have been "I understand" not to curse him as the next victim of profanity.

BTW, 853guy was one of the members I had to reach and apologize for on behalf of Andre. This is not the type of forum we run here and such language and conduct is not acceptable. The more it is defended, the more it encourages people to do it and then we sit here and wonder why they quit when like clockwork it gets out of control.

Thanks, Amir - I appreciate you did that.

But as I said, I don’t consider Andre owes me an apology, and I have not demanded one from him. Neither did I demand he change the language he was using - I simply suggested he had a choice as to how he conducted himself, given he himself makes a living from writing (as Rodney has kindly reminded us by quoting my original post in post #21 of this thread).

I’ve pretty much said all I have to say about why I considered his language to be offensive, in my initial posts to Andre, and now to Rodney. Neither have been receptive of my perspective, and that’s fine - I’m not here to change anyone else’s thinking or writing style. People clearly have differing perspectives as to what constitutes offence and their respsonsibility in managing it, and I can’t really be any clearer as to mine.

I do want to say this though:

I have no problem with Andre. I have never met him, and can pass no moral judgement on him, nor am I interested in doing so. But words carry weight. They’re pretty much all we have on a forum such as this. Again, I have no problem with Andre - only his choice of words. I understand the door is open for him to resume his forum, and I hope he takes the opportunity to shape it in a way that has the potential to benefit many.

Cheers.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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It seems like this is the way the world is going. Planned obsolescence, and poor build quality. More profitable to allocate these dollars to marketing instead, as most don't know the difference anyways. "Mystique" is always a better seller than actual quality.
I can't argue with that. It's quite sad actually, but it's all about moving product and creating turns.

EDIT: And this is where Andre comes in. He has provided many with inexpensive, quality product information and reviews.
 

amirm

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Amir,

Sorry to say but IMHO your post is a distorted view of the events. Your generalizations are misleading, and you present a wrong idea of engineers.
I am an engineer. I have managed and worked with thousands of engineers both in software and hardware. I watch engineering blogs everyday. A day does not go by where an engineer does not talk down some design from a picture and goes on to explain why. I and other engineers appreciate it and learn more about what good engineering is about. Here is the latest video from my favorite engineering blog, David Jones which ironically is also Australian. He has a saying, "don't turn it on, take it apart!" :D


Jump to minute 8:00 where he has the box open. The watch how much he talks about the unit without taking a single measurement or even turning on the device. All are visual observations which is precisely what we are doing.

Just in case you want to question Dave's qualifications, he has 300,000 subscribers! :eek: That video has been out for just one day and it already has 19,000 views. He has a busy forum where all the engineers hang out and analyze every word he says. And almost all of them including myself are appreciative of the service he provides by getting devices like this and analyzing them without bias.

The last bit is key. He has murdered some devices for bad design practices. He doesn't care that he got the equipment for free. If there is a design flaw, he is going to point it out like nobody's business. And this is the nature of many senior engineers.

To say otherwise makes no sense whatsoever micro. And it can't be Euro versus US because I managed a hardware/software R&D team in Reading, UK (outside of London) and those guys were 10 times more cynical about such things than we are in America! I had one senior British Engineer kick a hole in a wall because he didn't like the design of another engineer!

Engineers use deep knowledge and real factual data to support their conclusions, the do not insinuate possibilities.
We used factual data. I showed the graph of lifetime of capacitor and how it drops like a rock with temperature. And anyone that is messed with vintage gear such as R2R decks, knows that the first thing you do is replace all these caps. They are the highest failure points as they get old or run hot.

Now, did we say this means the device does not work? No. We said it does not follow good design practices and it doesn't. This is based on my personal and professional experience and I can line up as many expert witnesses as you like who agree with the same.

Please invite any senior analog electronics engineer her have them read what I post and let's see if they agree with you. I will bet you $1000 to your favorite charity that they would not defend your position.
 

amirm

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I don't defend Andre's choice of words in the title or his heated responses. but....
Years ago they had this author on a morning show who had written a book on "how to be sorry." He said that people did not know how to properly apologize. They would say they are sorry but immediately follow up with a justification of why they really are not! His main advice was: just say you are sorry. Don't say anything after that.

Now here I am, reading poster after poster saying "well, I don't condone what Andre said *but*" let me tell you why I really condone it for this reason or that reason.

For me, there is no "but." I have a responsibility to membership to keep this forum free of verbal abuse and inappropriate language Mike. I don't use it myself and will not under any circumstance approve it. I don't care if you thought you were giving me the answer to world peace. Don't use foul language. It is not proper. It is against the terms of service. And the policy must be immutable.
 

amirm

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I don't defend Andre's choice of words in the title or his heated responses. but attacking the 'alleged' technical shortcomings of gear, particularly gear which is newly introduced to us, or introduced to us by someone familiar to us, is just bad manners and will tear apart the community.
You frequently say analog is better than digital. Or that DSD is better that PCM. In what way is that welcoming to membership who only listen to digital PCM? I cringe everything I read you say that but I move on. I don't call them "alleged" or "claimed" anything. And as a group, our objectivists have learned to be very professional and let these comments go right past them.

Why is it that the other camp requires so much protection from the forum management in return for their cause? I mean let someone say from engineering this and is not true. You need our help to stop that why?
 

PeterA

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I am an engineer...And almost all of them including myself are appreciative of the service he provides by getting devices like this and analyzing them without bias.

Perhaps herein lies one of the issues. It is not known whether or not he is without bias. It seems to me that almost all of us have a bias.

The objectivists often attempt to prove that the subjectivists are wrong, or they ask, sometmes demand, evidence, proof or verification of the other's observations. Or in the case of that amplifier with the heatsinks on the bottom, they point out that the design is flawed without solicitation for comment. That leads to acrimony and a hostile environment for discussion. The subjectivists often just want to be left alone to enjoy their music or they want to share their experiences on friendly forums without having to prove their opinions. Many have left this forum for friendlier places.

I am saddened by the tone that has crept into this forum.
 
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Mike Lavigne

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Years ago they had this author on a morning show who had written a book on "how to be sorry." He said that people did not know how to properly apologize. They would say they are sorry but immediately follow up with a justification of why they really are not! His main advice was: just say you are sorry. Don't say anything after that.

Now here I am, reading poster after poster saying "well, I don't condone what Andre said *but*" let me tell you why I really condone it for this reason or that reason.

For me, there is no "but." I have a responsibility to membership to keep this forum free of verbal abuse and inappropriate language Mike. I don't use it myself and will not under any circumstance approve it. I don't care if you thought you were giving me the answer to world peace. Don't use foul language. It is not proper. It is against the terms of service. And the policy must be immutable.

your technical comments on Andre's reviewed amplifier are not connected to Andre's violations of decorum. he deserved to be censored for those improper actions. you were too slow to react to that IMHO. I was even surprised that his comments were not dealt with sooner. you reluctance is understandable if also unfortunate.

so I'm 100% with you that he deserved that. but by being involved in the thread yourself, even being one to criticize Andre's amp, I think that had something to do with how tolerant you were and how quickly you reacted.

another moderator should have stepped in sooner and said something.

but the 2 issues are not related really.

should we use such language? no.

should we be more respectful and supportive of newly introduced products? yes.

should first time posters be allowed to dive bomb a thread or new product? no.
 
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Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
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You frequently say analog is better than digital. Or that DSD is better that PCM. In what way is that welcoming to membership who only listen to digital PCM? I cringe everything I read you say that but I move on. I don't call them "alleged" or "claimed" anything. And as a group, our objectivists have learned to be very professional and let these comments go right past them.

please be specific. you are generalizing your perceptions of my viewpoints as if they are static and never qualified and simply blindly aimed.

please show me some cases so I get where you are coming from. I'm open to you being right.

have you even read my recent PCM comments?

Why is it that the other camp requires so much protection from the forum management in return for their cause? I mean let someone say from engineering this and is not true. You need our help to stop that why?

please be more clear and I'd be happy to respond.
 
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