Invisible speakers?

[fas42]

If the speaker shifts that image's position, there's something wrong not right

JackD201, I don't quite follow you. The images and soundstage of the recording "float" completely free from the speakers, they exist "holographically", to use another term. This is NOT recording dependent but SYSTEM dependent, and works for even the "worst" recordings. Again, if you were blindfolded and were brought into the music room you would not be able to pinpoint where the speakers were, even if you were about to trip over one!

Again, this is not magic, but just an illusion created by the ear/brain, but it's a damn good one!

Frank

 

[JackD201]

So you mean to say that blindfolded you can't immediately lead yourself to the closest source of the sound? Now you've got to be kidding Frank. I love and appreciate the illusion probably more than 99.99% of the human population but no source will disappear once you get inside a certain radius. That radius being the point where amplitude differences due to proximity are great enough to render one of the channels dominant to the ear/brain.

I also strongly disagree that it is system and not recording dependent. A system can not put an instrument in place if it wasn't put there in the recording. You could shift it laterally by altering the levels of either channel either electrically via dual mono volume pots or a balance control or mechanically by altering speaker distance to the listening position or vertically by very judicious EQ and again speaker placement but that's as far as you can go. Yes. It isn't magic.

I could burn a CD that could make any speaker reappear. 2 channels of different mono tracks hard panned left and right say a synth on the left and a drum machine on the right. You'll have nothing but a big hole in the middle, and a mix of the direct sound and their reflections.

 

[Robert]

If there is a system that is holographic from any point within the room, I have not experienced it. In terms of box speakers, they can be particular about positioning in order for the listener to 'lock' onto the image. To me, this makes sense from both a binaural standpoint, and when one considers that the center of the tweeter is 3 ft from the center of the bottom woofer. Once close enough to a speaker, the drivers will no longer integrate cohesively, nor were they ever designed to. Hence, the term,'sweet spot'.

Recordings do matter, to a degree. For example, DDD recordings, in general, have much better depth and perspective to give the holographic image, than ADD or AAD recordings. But even ADD recordings have the effect, if present at the recording. For example, Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker by Dorati from the 1970s has great depth, and is seering hot as a performance, but from a recording perspective, not as good as modern efforts.

 

[JackD201]

Hi Robert,

I personally believe the recording has everything to do with it. It is in the recording that the potential for holography lies. Here's a specific example, if you have a vocalist sing in an iso booth mere inches from a condenser mic with just a pop filter in between, there is no way you are getting anything more than one big mouth between your speakers. Make that a foot or two and you get the chest tones hence more of that singer's "image". Put here in a more reverberant sound field and you get cues as to where she was rather than stuck in some light sucking limbo on the dry (pre effects) signal. She'll also be in more proper scale relative to the other instruments.

I'm not downplaying the importance of equipment, acoustics or efforts in optimizing a system. I am an audio dealer. I make money doing that. As much as I might potentially benefit from propagating a "system is everything" mindset, it really begins with the recording. I am also of the school of thought that one should tailor his "sound" in accordance to one's own tastes however even nature has its limits. One can alter the sound of the recording with a home system in so many ways but getting sound to not come out of the speaker is not one of them.

Jack

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So you mean to say that blindfolded you can't immediately lead yourself to the closest source of the sound? Now you've got to be kidding Frank. I love and appreciate the illusion probably more than 99.99% of the human population but no source will disappear once you get inside a certain radius. That radius being the point where amplitude differences due to proximity are great enough to render one of the channels dominant to the ear/brain.

I also strongly disagree that it is system and not recording dependent. A system can not put an instrument in place if it wasn't put there in the recording. You could shift it laterally by altering the levels of either channel either electrically via dual mono volume pots or a balance control or mechanically by altering speaker distance to the listening position or vertically by very judicious EQ and again speaker placement but that's as far as you can go. Yes. It isn't magic.

I could burn a CD that could make any speaker reappear. 2 channels of different mono tracks hard panned left and right say a synth on the left and a drum machine on the right. You'll have nothing but a big hole in the middle, and a mix of the direct sound and their reflections.

Yep.

Tim

 

[Robert]

Jack,

I agree with you that the recording has the most to do with it. A system will let you hear it, if it is there. However, I do not make the recording the center of my argument, because you can't change the recording. I see no point in arguing a fixed variable.

Not only is the recording important, but also the composer. Some of the great Russian composers (e.g. Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Rimsky-Korsokof, Stravinsky, Tcherpin) were phenomenal orchestrators. They understood the power of the soundstage, and the interplay of different melodies within different sections. Listen to Rachmaninov Symph #3 by Janson and you will understand. That disc is extraordinary in its ability to put you in an orchestral hall and keep you on the edge of you seat.

But not all music has this facet. When I listen to the Italiano Quartet's play Beethoven, it is the harmonizing of different melodies, the synergy of the violin and cello into a totally new sound. Soundstage needs to be plausible, but this interpretation is not about holography. And when I hear the Emerson String Quartet play Beethoven, it is the rhythmic interplay among musicians that commands my attention, not the harmonizing of melodies so much. And everytime I hear a different composer, by a different set of musicians, in a different location, there is something totally unique about that experience that goes beyond the notes on the page.

I agree that engineers need to record in a natural perspective. If the microphone is 1 inch from the singers mouth, there is nothing that can fix that. In general, I prefer recordings in halls rather than studios because it gives the perspectie of sitting in an audience. The one exception are violin sonatas, which when done with natural miking in a studio, convey a sense of clarity and realism because the emphasis is on the violin and not the room. So, I'd rather hear Vengerov, Midori, or Hahn play accompanied by the piano in a studio, because it sounds like the violinist is standing right before the listener with nothing in between.

 

[JackD201]

Fantastic that you mention the composers. Bartok was probably the most extreme in that he rearranged the sections so the percussions were smack down the middle with the Piano. These days producers decide what goes where and yes it is a fixed variable.

 

[tony ky ma]

tony, that probably works in the sense of being equivalent to moving towards or away from a live musical event. Personally, I find the easiest technique is to listen as close as possible to the treble driver. If you can't hear it, as in the sense that if you were to close your eyes, and somebody move your head around a bit, that you would not be able to point your finger at the tweeter accurately, then the speaker is truly invisible. Any "harsh" recording is a giveaway when things are not right, the driver spits at you like a wounded cat!

Frank, In my experience, multi amps system is the most system easily to make speakers invisible, in my system every time I don't feel sound is normal I had to put my ear to each driver to check it is working or not even put my finger to touch the cone to check.( I need to turn on more than 10 switches for the whole system,some time I miss one of them, I already posted pictures in other post, you can take a look for reference ). the super high drive (JBL 2405 ) only for 15K and over in frequency, I can hear very little sound of music,most of them like noise when I turn my ear very close to it, but if I switch off this section, the whole thing feel live less, may be this can call invisible. another experience, my friend brought a 12 pcs. EL34 tube amp play with a JM Lap book shelf, sound stick with the speaker by CD source, but when switch to a direct cut vinyl, it moved away, so my conclusion is a good system can make speakers invisible no matter of recording, but good source recording can help poor system and also can make a good system have a very solid images make sound more like real things
tony ma

 

[fas42]

multi amps system is the most system easily to make speakers invisible

tony, that is an excellent tweak, so to speak. That Tim's systems works well for him is helped for the same reason

most of them like noise when I turn my ear very close to it

Unfortunately, that to me says that things are not quite right. For me, this is the key indicator, it most definitely should NOT sound like noise; I would in fact use the word distortion.

A little thought experiment:

You have a modern pre-amp with volume via remote control and setting digital readout in dB's. Most people with a decent setup wouldn't think twice of changing the volume setting from, say, 60 to 84, they would do this sort of thing all the time. But that readout would be pretty accurate , and would mean that the sound level coming from the speakers has increased in RELATIVE volume by 24 dB.

Now take someone 3ft away from a working speaker, Tim actually does this during normal listening, in fact. For the moment ignore the complication of there being two speakers -- disconnect the leads on one side, say. Let's say he's listening at a sound meter level of 85dB, a lot of people quote this sort of figure. Now every acoustics text book will tell you if you halve or double the distance to a sound source you change the volume by 6dB, so now consider what happens when you get closer to the speaker:

Distance - Volume:
3ft - 85
1.5ft - 91
9" - 97 (remember we are HALVING the CURRENT distance, NOT the original distance, therefore not moving the same distance each time!)
4" - 103
2" - 109

Gee, 2" away from the speaker, and 109dB, an increase of 24dB (hmm, sounds familiar, for some reason ...)! You must be being deafened! But wait ... magazine reviews of systems routinely talk of having volume levels over 110dB when listening to see what a system is capable of! To get this in perspective, you can read serious studies of how players in orchestras routinely work in maximum sound levels of over 120dB in certain sections, for hours on end!

Some people might say, but my speaker sounds terrible at times if I am 2" away! And I would say, yes, because you are hearing all the distortion, as clear as a bell, that your system is producing, it is NOT CLEAN sound coming from the speaker! So, what to do? Get rid of all that distortion, which is NOT the speaker's fault. Do that, and you can listen from 2" away, and the speaker becomes invisible ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Now you've got to be kidding Frank. I love and appreciate the illusion probably more than 99.99% of the human population but no source will disappear once you get inside a certain radius. That radius being the point where amplitude differences due to proximity are great enough to render one of the channels dominant to the ear/brain

I agree, this is a hard thing to get across to people. Unfortunately, it is in a similar category to, say, drinking red wine. If all you have experienced has been mediocre or reasonable red wine, and then someone starts raving about what a fantastic experience a truly great red wine was, you would think they were nuts! Now, I am NOT saying I have great system, in fact at the moment by any normal standards it is extremely mediocre to look at, and usually, to listen to. BUT, I do know if I do all the right things, and the fates are smiling down on me, that the system becomes magic, in the way I've said ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

A system can not put an instrument in place if it wasn't put there in the recording

And I agree 100%! But it IS there accoustically, in the right position, either because the engineer panned it to that position or that's how the microphones picked it up. Microphones are much, much better than a lot of people give them credit for -- they HAVE picked up all the accoustic clues as to what was going on during the recording. It is then up to the reproduction system to REPRODUCE CLEANLY what those microphones were fed. The trouble is, typically too much spurious distortion is completely mangling those subtle auditory clues that are in fact on the recording, and your head rejects it as a bad recording, and certainly not real, not "holographic" ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

If there is a system that is holographic from any point within the room, I have not experienced it

See my comment about good red wine -- I think muralman1 is on my side with this one ...

Once close enough to a speaker, the drivers will no longer integrate cohesively, nor were they ever designed to

Yes, they were not designed to, but the illusion will occur irrespective of the designer's intent. I have had it happen with at least 4 different, just reasonable speakers, one in fact is totally mediocre by any measure.

Recordings do matter

I'm sorry, this is being said over and over again, and the truth is, it is not true! Yes, the soundstage will vary quite dramatically, but it is truly amazing what has still been picked up by the recording, if your system is capable of revealing it cleanly. You know, I have lost count of the number of times reviewers and users have written that there was something in the air at the time (and not alcoholic vapours!) and everything snapped into place, they could put on their bad recordings and there was something special about every one of them. And I know what they are talking about ...

Okay, I'm done, plumb tuckered out for the day!

Cheers all,
Frank

 

[muralman1]

Yes, I do agree with your analogy, Frank. Just yesterday my Wife and I visited three wineries in Amador County. We first visited CG d'Arie, our favorite, because they make the best wine we have ever tasted. That is because the owner and vintner was renowned food scientist. He pays special attention to getting every detail from picking to bottling just right. The next two wineries are your more normal type. As all the hundreds of wineries in the region grade wise with plusses and minuses. None fully compare to CG, with most off the mark. You would not know that, unless you spent some time tasting at CG.

The sound in my moderately large room obviously are generated by my speakers, if you know they are speakers. People with no knowledge of audio don't recognize them as music makers.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think you guys have been drinking a bit too much of that wine!

Tim

 

[fas42]

Now come on, Tim, you were going to give me a go on this ...

The sad thing is, if you and everyone else reject what I and Vince (muralman1) are saying about this, what is possible, then the bits of knowledge we two (and probably others) have acquired could easily go down the gurgler, and all the audio enthusiasts will keep on grinding away with the same ideas and methods, and nothing will really move forward.

The interesting thing is that you of all people have as good a chance of getting there as anybody here. Robert is also very close to achieving that level of reproduction.

To get back to a "real" (pun intended) situation, when you said that you could lean to the right with a mono recording and the image moved with you, how far could you take it? In other hands, everything you've said so far implies that at some point this illusion, artifact, playing tricks on your mind fails for you, and you can hear that the sound is really coming from the speaker on that side.

So, to get nice and scientific, and engineering-like about it, how far can you lean before the phantom image collapses: 3", 6", 12", etc?

Cheers,
Frank

 

[fas42]

Actually, I have just realised what my use of terminology should be, from a listening experience yesterday. People always talk about the sweet spot, saying that with some setups it is 1/10th inch wide , and I never really knew what they were talking about! Therefore I shall say, the sweet spot can be made as wide as the room, if that helps people get a better handle on it ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So, to get nice and scientific, and engineering-like about it, how far can you lean before the phantom image collapses: 3", 6", 12", etc?

Until I've leaned in front of the speaker, of course. Then it's no longer a phantom! But I do want some of that wine....

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Me too. I'll take two cases please.

Frank, what I'm saying is if the engineer panned it to where the speaker is that is where you'll localize the sound from if things are set up right. He doesn't even have to pan it there. Even in a binaural recording some sounds would just happen to be exactly where the speakers are and when it happens they pull your attention to their position. It's why so many of us turn down the lights or close our eyes.

IMO if your speakers can disappear in Mono, they can disappear in Stereo too but in Stereo they can never totally disappear because there will always be instances like those mentioned above.

 

[fas42]

Measurement, Tim, measurement ...

Or do you mean at the precise moment your nose is in line with left edge of the speaker?

You know, I've got a feeling it's gonna be hard work dragging a number out of you ...

Frank

 

[muralman1]

I think Tim has it, "Close your eyes. Trust your ears."