I disagree, Johnny. I think one of the most engaging aspects of this type of music is the interesting, layered arrangements. Hearing this on a low end system would either bore me or drive me out of the room. Hearing it live or on a system that can separate the instruments makes a huge difference. Perhaps you don't have experience with this or simply disagree, but saying it's 'crock' or inferring that Al is elitist doesn't seem fair to me. With regard to the latter, I think you are misinterpreting his passion for this type of music as some form of elitism.
Is anyone interested in contemporary music?
- Thread starter Ian Moore
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I disagree, Johnny. I think one of the most engaging aspects of this type of music is the interesting, layered arrangements. Hearing this on a low end system would either bore me or drive me out of the room. Hearing it live or on a system that can separate the instruments makes a huge difference. Perhaps you don't have experience with this or simply disagree, but saying it's 'crock' or inferring that Al is elitist doesn't seem fair to me. With regard to the latter, I think you are misinterpreting his passion for this type of music as some form of elitism.
I meant no insult to Al, only to the comment, which I still stand by. Sure you can hear more of the music (ANY music) with a demonstrated better system, but to say it must be heard on only those system to appreciate is a crock. And the "only half the music" comment is a gross exaggeration. The millions of audiophiles with regular stereos (please explain what that means) may as will stop listening as they can't hear it properly anyway.
How would you know if the comment is a gross exaggeration if you haven't heard the particular piece that I was referring to, both on a great system (I suppose yours is too) and on a good car radio (not too far removed in resolution from a regular home stereo)? I have done both, and I still like this piece on the car radio, but with regard to that music I stand by my "half the music" comment. Yes, many listeners have regular stereos and hear much less of the individual music strands, and many are fans of that kind of music all the same. BTW, many people these days listen with headphones/earbuds rather than over speakers, and that helps.
To Al's point, I think about a composition like Stravinsky's The Firebird. It is very hard to appreciate the beauty and intent of the music while listening to it being played in my pickup's CD player. It's simply too quiet to overcome the road noise and the poor quality of the reproduction. Now, obviously, no one on this site is listening to classical music in their homes on a system comparable to the one in my truck. But somewhere between the quality of that, and a good high end system is a point before which the intent or beauty of a piece is not fully heard or experienced because the system can not deliver enough of what is on the recording. I don't see that this is controversial, and I think this is the point that Al is trying to make.
I have heard some of my recordings on MadFloyd's system. I learned something about these recordings, especially in the lower frequencies that I did not know before. It made the music both more enjoyable, and more meaningful. More of the composer's or musician's intent came across. My less articulate and resolving system can not reproduce these things. It does not really bother me, but I can not ignore this reality. It is a simple as that and I don't think Al meant any offense by his comment.
I have heard some of my recordings on MadFloyd's system. I learned something about these recordings, especially in the lower frequencies that I did not know before. It made the music both more enjoyable, and more meaningful. More of the composer's or musician's intent came across. My less articulate and resolving system can not reproduce these things. It does not really bother me, but I can not ignore this reality. It is a simple as that and I don't think Al meant any offense by his comment.
I don't understand what the fuss with Al's comment is all about; he said:
Isn't this the reason we all buy the expensive high-end stuff over a simple stereo? I must be missing something. If that makes us all elitist, then what about those of us who attend live music events to truly get the real thing in real time [and get our fix] because no high-end system or otherwise will do it for us??? Utterly puzzled...
Isn't this the reason we all buy the expensive high-end stuff over a simple stereo? I must be missing something. If that makes us all elitist, then what about those of us who attend live music events to truly get the real thing in real time [and get our fix] because no high-end system or otherwise will do it for us??? Utterly puzzled...
Thank you, Peter and Ack, for your comments. They get to the core of what I meant by what I said, just like Ian's earlier comments did.
I don't think it's elitist either. The more complex the music is, the more you need a good stereo to be able to fully grasp it. With difficult music such as this, where there's no obvious melody line or something you can easily latch to, it's all about dynamics, timbres, sounds, impact, etc. And we all know you can only get all that with a proper system 
I'd go a step further and say that a lot of this music only REALLY makes sense live. When melody is down the list of priorities then tonal colour and impact can make or break the effect of the piece. Of course, that's not to say you can't enjoy it other ways. As always, the better the hifi the better the illusion, but live wins out, and sometimes with this stuff opens the eyes and ears much further.
Talk about trying to interpret the intent of the composer. Wow. I hope the composer sat in the video mixing room or it would be anyone's guess. Imagine trying to repeat the performance. This throws all kinds of assumptions about classical music out the, err, window.
I don't think it's elitist either. The more complex the music is, the more you need a good stereo to be able to fully grasp it. With difficult music such as this, where there's no obvious melody line or something you can easily latch to, it's all about dynamics, timbres, sounds, impact, etc. And we all know you can only get all that with a proper system
I have to admit, both comments above resonate with me. There have been innumerable times in the last few years as my system has gotten to the 'full evolved stage' (before the next 'evolution of course!)...where complex music that i used to leave on the shelf is now coming out more and more...exactly because of what you both say. i actually can understand the music better, because tiny (but extremely important) inflexions in the music become clear, and suddenly things make a LOT more sense to me.
In fact, i can honestly say that it is as a direct result of the system's evolution, that suddenly i found myself on a long-term steady expansion of my music (stable for years around 300-600CDs...and within 5-6 years suddenly gone to about 2000.) The sheer exploration of great music on the system has been so easy and so much fun, it has inspired me to keep going and exploring.
I know for sure much of this new music would sound great on my earlier systems too...but i never would have discovered it in the first place. And it was the way the current system allowed me to enjoy my first 600 CDs and in many cases REDISCOVER my music (particularly complex orchestral, solo piano)...that i found myself being inspired to go and explore more and more and more...
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
How does the saying go.....
"no rhyme, no reason"
Al M I am fascinated that people would buy tickets to hear this rather than to hear music from one of the great classical composers. Like many here, for me it is tantamount to scratching that chalk board or biting into an egg shell in your food. How does one even compare one composer to another. What do you look (or should I say listen) for in performances such as these. It is truly a different flavor to which I usually listen.
"no rhyme, no reason"
Al M I am fascinated that people would buy tickets to hear this rather than to hear music from one of the great classical composers. Like many here, for me it is tantamount to scratching that chalk board or biting into an egg shell in your food. How does one even compare one composer to another. What do you look (or should I say listen) for in performances such as these. It is truly a different flavor to which I usually listen.
Steve,
Or they buy tickets to hear music from both the great contemporary and the great classical composers.
My own journey in the classical realm continues as well. Just recently I have enthusiastically rediscovered Mozart, plunged into Beethoven's early string quartets, and have come to appreciate the depths and compositional strength of Shostakovich's 14th symphony.
Some have already posted here some good comments on what the music is about, and we've had a thread on this kind of music, and what to listen for:
Classical Avantgarde
I don't think it's elitist either. The more complex the music is, the more you need a good stereo to be able to fully grasp it. With difficult music such as this, where there's no obvious melody line or something you can easily latch to, it's all about dynamics, timbres, sounds, impact, etc. And we all know you can only get all that with a proper system
The next time I hear a recording of a female solo vocalist at a high end show, I'm going to ask the exhibitor why they are afraid to play more complex music to reproduce!
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Worth remembering that a lot of now standard repertoire was viewed similarly suspiciously on release. There really is no substitute for familiarity. Over time, and I know this from experience, things sound less discordant, less downright weird, and they take on their own charm.
Gary P, call me crazy, but I'm getting a vague sense, just the merest hint, that you don't really care for this music...
How true. Here is Giuseppe Verdi on Beethoven's Ninth Symphony:
Giuseppe Verdi complained about the vocal writing;[1] in a letter he wrote to Clarina Maffei dated 20 April 1878, he said the symphony was:
...marvelous in its first three movements, very badly set in the last. No one will ever surpass the sublimity of the first movement, but it will be an easy task to write as badly for voices as is done in the last movement.
From Wikipedia, Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven)
***
Beethoven is now ripe for the madhouse.
(Renowned composer Carl Maria von Weber, on hearing Beethoven’s Seventh Symphony)
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