Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?

[AudioHR]

I don't think high end audio is dying. It's just remaining the small niche it has been since around the mid-80s.

The three most high energy areas are headphones, streaming, and vinyl. As long as those remain vibrant, we are likely to remain a steady, stable niche. The industry should focus on making affordable systems that are easy to setup in these areas. There is some real progress there, especially on streaming devices and turntables.

I believe the key is around the high school and college years where a love of music and music reproduction is most likely to have the biggest impression.

For my part, I like to invite younger folks over to hear the system using their own music, ideally using their own records to play. Often they are astonished how good things can sound and how great records in particular sound.

David Chesky and I have been talking for a while about a dream to have a manufacturer sponsored tour to set up quality hifi systems at major colleges. I think that is one possible way forward.

I think it would be a wonderful idea to set up quality hifi systems at colleges! Frankly the hi end industry should be all over this. One caveat, the systems need to be real world, it would not make sense to set up any megabuck hype fi systems. All in the industry would benefit in the long run. If our industry is selfish and just focuses on high margin luxury stuff then we are fated to be a declining niche market.

I also love to invite young people over. They are welcome to bring their own records or I can stream whatever they would like. Interesting enough some of their requests do not sound very good as a lot of music has been highly compressed. Even more interesting is when comparing a few tracks that I might play and a few of their requests they immediately identify the difference in quality. Invariably they prefer the better produced/recorded sound, mine or theirs.

That tells me that all is not lost and our industry/community must just do a better job of communicating and demonstrating how good entry level equipment can sound! Part of this is helping the consumer identify what types of media sound best. IMHO at least part of the renaissance in vinyl must be because it sounds better even on a budget system. There are various streaming quality level available, if the consumer can hear the difference they will opt for the better quality if the cost differences are negligible. Is there a need for highly compressed media today? If the recording/marketing industry see a movement towards higher quality they can either lead the charge or get left behind.

So the metaphorical cup could be half empty or half full. Let's do what we can to fill it up!

 

[treitz3]

Please explain what progress you think the industry has made over the system I owned between age 28 and 34, 1981 to 1988. Just the sound reaching my ears.

Are you for real or kidding?.....not quite sure how to take this one.

You haven't heard any progress since 1981?

Tom

 

[Lee]

Are you for real or kidding?.....not quite sure how to take this one.

You haven't heard any progress since 1981?

Tom

I am amazed by this comment as well. So much innovation has occurred since even 2001!

 

[facten]

I think it would be a wonderful idea to set up quality hifi systems at colleges! Frankly the hi end industry should be all over this

In thinking about a college campus I am curious how you would propose going about this where it would actually draw attention and make an impact ?

 

[tony22]

In the old days us college kids would go to a Tech HiFi or a similar store, spend hours and days listening to gear that was actually priced as affordable to most of us, and then bought what we liked, brought it back to our dorm rooms, set them up, kept our doors open and played music all night long from records we bought at record stores.

Think about how many of these paradigms are just plain gone for modern day college kids.

 

[Lee]

In thinking about a college campus I am curious how you would propose going about this where it would actually draw attention and make an impact ?

You create a destination classroom, fill it with good but fairly affordable gear, set it up perfectly, advertise it on campus, get teachers talking about it, and start playing music. I have been talking to UVA’s music department about this and they love the idea.

 

[Robh3606]

You create a destination classroom, fill it with good but fairly affordable gear, set it up perfectly, advertise it on campus, get teachers talking about it, and start playing music. I have been talking to UVA’s music department about this and they love the idea.

I took music in college when stereos in dorms were the norm. They used a portable all in one phono with a full-range speaker on an AV cart. You going to have them take turns in the sweet spot? Why don't you have it so it's open all day so they can come in bring their music with them. Kind of like a "break room" instead of a structured and timed event. Or set-up a room they can use to learn for themselves.

Rob

 

[facten]

You create a destination classroom, fill it with good but fairly affordable gear, set it up perfectly, advertise it on campus, get teachers talking about it, and start playing music. I have been talking to UVA’s music department about this and they love the idea.

So who is being lined up to pay for and provide the gear? Who will oversea the room and equipment? Who decides what music genre is in the advertising that will drive them to the room, and played while they are there? I'd venture that the UVAs music department's music interest will differ grately from that of the students. What time of day is this classroom open for listening that either doesn't interfere with classes or is going to entice them to come back "after hours"? Etc etc. Also, without being party to these conversations how does the UVA's music department agenda support the agenda of better music sound via better equipment?

 

[Phillyb]

Have you ever been to a Can Jam event? Yes, you are right. The iPod generation does experience music differently. The demographic at head-fi events is between the late twenties and late forties. They are checking out all sorts of head-fi, including headphones, DACs, and dedicated headphone amplifiers that cost upward of $50k, with lots in between. The point is that the sector is anything but dying, which may lead to a resurgence of interest in two-channel audio, albeit it will likely look different.

Having just returned from CAF, the average age attending is probably 60, and I am being generous. So yes, the industry is contracting simply because baby boomers who have grown up owning a good hi-fi are aging out. What's driving the uber-high-end is that generation has accumulated tremendous wealth (the wealthiest generation ever) and is looking for ways to spend it. Hi-fi is as good a choice as anything, even better. I would say. So we have perhaps another ten years with $150k speakers, 300-pound $100k + amplifiers, and six-figure DACs and turntables.

I see innovation and value everywhere in the mid-high-end—for example, active speakers under $10k with incredible performance. Add a streamer DAC with a good VC, and you will have a fabulous-sounding two-box system.

Tonight, I am listening to an under $30k system with my pal David Blumenstein, which is incredibly satisfying. Those who know me know I promote high-end systems costing much more but also routinely ground myself in more modest offerings that still get my foot tapping and heart singing.

The high-end won't dye but must adapt. I'm encouraged at some of the new developments in my stable; for example, at Von Schweikert, we just introduced a $50k speaker that can run with six-figure models; WestminsterLab will introduce a dual mono, Class A integrated in the new year in the low 30's, Rockna is launching their new Reference DAC which at under $25k need not be embarrassed six-figure three chassis offerings, etc.

In the meantime, creating expensive systems that touch the soul and make one proud to own them is fun. Horns, panels (never been better), and multi-driver cones and domes - so much to choose from! And even at lower price points, I admire what Acora has done recently, Wolf Von Langa (field coils), Blumenhofer (horns), and Clarysis Piccolo's (ribbon panels) that allow enthusiasts the ability to put a system together for between $25-50,000 that rocks the house.

Encouraged about the future - you bet I am!

View attachment 141439

You made a good point about 50K speakers and 30K DAC. Only a select few have that type of money to spend, which means the upper 1-5% of wage earners. Even if one makes 100K a year with a family to raise, they don't have the income to buy this type of gear, which some would say is a bargain in today's market. They need to call this not a hobby, but for the well-off and famous. Hobby means many can get into it, but those who did are now 50-80 years of age, and the young adults grew up listening to music differently and it is not sitting in front of 2 speakers, or buying or needing physical music. Stream baby stream by the billions now.

 

[RoAm]

Please see the YouTube video produced by Wilson Audio, “I See Music Everywhere” on the implementation of this idea of setting up a listening room at the University of the South https://new.sewanee.edu/ralstonlisteninglibrary/. I had the honor of meeting and listening with both Fr. William Ralston and Tam Carlson (rest in peace); both of these gentlemen were extremely gracious in spending time educating me in classical music!

 

[RoAm]

Correction - it should read, “I can see music everywhere”
BY WILSON AUDIO SPECIALTIES

 

[facten]

Please see the YouTube video produced by Wilson Audio, “I See Music Everywhere” on the implementation of this idea of setting up a listing room at the University of the South https://new.sewanee.edu/ralstonlisteninglibrary/. I had the honor of meeting and listening with both Fr. William Ralston and Tam Carlson (rest in peace); both of these gentlemen were extremely gracious in spending time educating me in classical music!

Very nice, but it doesn't align with Lee's notion of demonstrating to college students what their listening experience might be with equipment that maybe they will be able to afford near term.

 

[Rt66indierock]

Are you for real or kidding?.....not quite sure how to take this one.

You haven't heard any progress since 1981?

Tom

No, I was serious. What evidence can you provide?

Subjective? John Atkinson said I think we can all agree that sighted subjective listening can yield reliable results. No, it can’t.

The self-taught can’t provide it either.

The limits of human hearing, perception and the effects of aging. How much more is there to hear than what I could hear in my late twenties and early thirties with a state of the art system?

 

[treitz3]

Well, I am not going to provide you with evidence, as that's not something I feel that I need to prove to anyone but I will say this...

There was the introduction of digital. At the time, I was one of the lucky few who had this new fandangaled thing called a CDP. Yeah, it was cleaner than vinyl but I honestly hated it. It was akin to nails on a chalkboard to me.

Since then, advancements in DAC technology, clocking, incoming power noise reduction, the use of different metallurgies and shielding techniques, along with reduction of jitter and a plethora of other noise gremlins that plauged our systems have all advanced.

Then there is the introduction of streaming and LAN technology that are pushing SOTA boundaries that allow digital to be nothing like it was back then.

Now, we also have wonderful and exciting new products that were (to my knowledge) not available back then. Products like the latest Takio products, Muon Pro, Purons, and the latest Shenerzinger products that just recently hit the market, to name a few.

There are plenty more out there but don't you think that all of these make today's listening a better experience than we enjoyed back in the day?

I am not one to argue, that's simply not my style, so if you don't agree? Then let's leave it at that and agree to disagree. All I know is that I am a very happy camper to be listening to what I am now, versus back then.

I especially like what I am NOT hearing. FWIW. YMMV.

Tom

 

[CSG]

In my many years of experience in this hobby I cannot recall any non audiophile person sitting down and listening to more than a couple of songs on my rig and it was typically less than a song. They just don’t feel comfortable, I guess sitting there staring into empty space. A few will get sucked into the music, but not many. Sure, these days it is easy enough to mount a flat screen on the wall and show Apple TV screensavers. When I listen, I imagine the instruments and musicians in place based on the imaging. I don’t need my MTV.

And then the most common comment is, “I thought it would have more bass.” My comeback: I strive for quality not quantity in the bass. But as someone said, it is not easy reproducing the pounding a marching band bass drum can do to you in real life. I used to go to the blues bars in Detroit in the 1990’s. The bass was always way over powering. I like the blues but I am happy to not shake my house down listening to the blues.

I don't have near the high end stuff some of you have but all my systems sound quite pleasing to my reasonably experienced ears, both as a musician and a music lover. I listen to music like David Puddy. It's a running joke with my wife and I as she can't simply sit still and listen.

 

[Rt66indierock]

Well, I am not going to provide you with evidence, as that's not something I feel that I need to prove to anyone but I will say this...

There was the introduction of digital. At the time, I was one of the lucky few who had this new fandangaled thing called a CDP. Yeah, it was cleaner than vinyl but I honestly hated it. It was akin to nails on a chalkboard to me.

Since then, advancements in DAC technology, clocking, incoming power noise reduction, the use of different metallurgies and shielding techniques, along with reduction of jitter and a plethora of other noise gremlins that plauged our systems have all advanced.

Then there is the introduction of streaming and LAN technology that are pushing SOTA boundaries that allow digital to be nothing like it was back then.

Now, we also have wonderful and exciting new products that were (to my knowledge) not available back then. Products like the latest Takio products, Muon Pro, Purons, and the latest Shenerzinger products that just recently hit the market, to name a few.

There are plenty more out there but don't you think that all of these make today's listening a better experience than we enjoyed back in the day?

I am not one to argue, that's simply not my style, so if you don't agree? Then let's leave it at that and agree to disagree. All I know is that I am a very happy camper to be listening to what I am now, versus back then.

I especially like what I am NOT hearing. FWIW. YMMV.

Tom

Tom, my point is that the listening experience of a SOTA 2 channel system hasn’t changed. Mine was terrific back then.

 

[PeterA]

Well, I am not going to provide you with evidence, as that's not something I feel that I need to prove to anyone but I will say this...

There was the introduction of digital. At the time, I was one of the lucky few who had this new fandangaled thing called a CDP. Yeah, it was cleaner than vinyl but I honestly hated it. It was akin to nails on a chalkboard to me.

Since then, advancements in DAC technology, clocking, incoming power noise reduction, the use of different metallurgies and shielding techniques, along with reduction of jitter and a plethora of other noise gremlins that plauged our systems have all advanced.

Then there is the introduction of streaming and LAN technology that are pushing SOTA boundaries that allow digital to be nothing like it was back then.

Now, we also have wonderful and exciting new products that were (to my knowledge) not available back then. Products like the latest Takio products, Muon Pro, Purons, and the latest Shenerzinger products that just recently hit the market, to name a few.

There are plenty more out there but don't you think that all of these make today's listening a better experience than we enjoyed back in the day?

I am not one to argue, that's simply not my style, so if you don't agree? Then let's leave it at that and agree to disagree. All I know is that I am a very happy camper to be listening to what I am now, versus back then.

I especially like what I am NOT hearing. FWIW. YMMV.

Tom

I am sympathetic to indierock's point of view. You describe the introduction of digital and then the improvements to digital and then streaming since 1981. Well, for those who think that analog sounds better than any of that digital, there has been little if any real progress since then. There are certainly differences in how music is recorded, produced, and distributed, so formats have changed and things are cheaper, smaller, and more convenient. Music is portable, and tween kids all have music in their pockets. I think the question was about sound quality hitting your ear. I am not convinced that the experience has gotten any better, or more real sounding.

My speakers are from 1959, my cartridge is from the 80s maybe or older, I just installed the Denon DD turntable I had in college, also 1981, and it all just sounds fantastic, and better than my former SME/Pass/Magico system. Most of the hi end gear I hear leaves me cold and not any more involved in the music. And I do not think it sounds any more real. Sure, this years DAC or Magico speakers sound better than last years model, but, compare them to a big Micro Seiki turntable from the 80s, or some classic large horn speakers, or JBL M9500s, and I scratch my head.

 

[Al M.]

Tom, my point is that the listening experience of a SOTA 2 channel system hasn’t changed. Mine was terrific back then.

While I liked my system in the Nineties, my current system is way, way better and it is more enjoyable. The equipment is far better, with way better digital as well. And the room acoustics are much better.

 

[hopkins]

I am sympathetic to indierock's point of view. You describe the introduction of digital and then the improvements to digital and then streaming since 1981. Well, for those who think that analog sounds better than any of that digital, there has been little if any real progress since then. There are certainly differences in how music is recorded, produced, and distributed, so formats have changed and things are cheaper, smaller, and more convenient. Music is portable, and tween kids all have music in their pockets. I think the question was about sound quality hitting your ear. I am not convinced that the experience has gotten any better, or more real sounding.

My speakers are from 1959, my cartridge is from the 80s maybe or older, I just installed the Denon DD turntable I had in college, also 1981, and it all just sounds fantastic, and better than my former SME/Pass/Magico system. Most of the hi end gear I hear leaves me cold and not any more involved in the music. And I do not think it sounds any more real. Sure, this years DAC or Magico speakers sound better than last years model, but, compare them to a big Micro Seiki turntable from the 80s, or some classic large horn speakers, or JBL M9500s, and I scratch my head.

That's all great, but with your all analog system, you can listen to only a fraction of what I can listen to... At some point, one has to choose. Sure, analog may sound better than digital, but music sounds better than silence

 

[twitch]

That's all great, but with your all analog system, you can listen to only a fraction of what I can listen to... At some point, one has to choose. Sure, analog may sound better than digital, but music sounds better than silence

True, but there is a part of the 'fraction' that is only available from the analog glory days. Example - I've yet to find Ahmad Jamal's 'Heat Wave' on QoBuz, yet that superb '66 recording sounds wonderful on my TT