Is Audiophilia a Dying Hobby or Just in Need of a Tune-Up?

No real progress? I would beg to differ.

Tom
I would partly agree with this statement. The major progress in high end audio in the past decade has been streaming, i.e. the ability to transmit large amounts of music digitally over the Internet at high bit rates. That innovation, incidentally, did not come from the high end market, but from a small startup in Sweden named Spotify (to see the beautiful story of how streaming was invented, see the Netflix docudrama The Playlist). A bunch of technical innovations, chiefly the ability to bypass some of the latency in the TCP/IP network protocol that runs the web was necessary to get real-time streaming to work (just as streaming movies required ideas like overlay networks, which a former academic colleague of mine invented in his Princeton PhD thesis -- he went on to co-found Akamai, whose hundreds of thousands of servers runs large parts of the Internet).

If you look at other categories, say speakers, I'd say there's been no innovation at all. The best loudspeakers of the past 60 years -- the Klipschorn, the Quad ESL 63, the Spendor BBC models, the Magneplanars etc. -- are still some of the best loudspeakers today. No real innovation in the science of making loudspeakers that I can see, except putting bigger cones in bigger boxes. Sure, there is innovation in materials used to make cones, like graphene or Alan Shaw's composite polymer RADIAL midrange cones in Harbeth, but that's an incremental innovation in my book.

What would a true innovation in loudspeaker technology look like? It's really simple -- produce a loudspeaker that can resolve all 16 bits recorded on humble CD disc that has been around for 40+ years. We are so so far from being able to hear the full resolution of redbook CD that it's laughable. The best loudspeakers can barely resolve 7-8 bits of information in the bass and treble, and even in the midrange, the resolution is just around 10-11 bits. To get true redbook quality sound from a loudspeaker, distortion has to be around 0.001% from 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Where are we now? Ha! More like 5% THD in the bass, perhaps 0.1% THD in the midrange for the best (read electrostatic or horn) loudspeakers, and worse in the treble. Solve this problem and you have a real breakthrough in high end audio.

What are manufacturers doing instead? Well, selling the same old wine in new bottles mostly. Or chasing after non-existent problems, like fancy media servers or DACs that weigh hundreds of pounds, but whose measured improvement over much cheaper solutions is non-existent. Fancy power chords or USB cables is not where the hard scientific problems in high end audio are. The more you chase after non-existent problems, the longer it will take to make genuine progress.

Since I have a scientific background, having spent most of my life as an academic, in most areas of science, there's a very clear understanding of what the truly hard scientific problems are. In physics, it is understanding the large-scale structure of the universe, how the universe began, and how to reconcile the large-scale force of gravity with the infinitesimal forces underlying quantum mechanics. Black holes are the hard scientific problem in physics -- a region where time and space cease to exist. Biologists are deeply interested in how life began on earth. We know evolution is what drives biology, but how did life even get started? That's the mystery. Neuroscientists want to understand the brain -- how can 100 billion neurons in our head write symphonies, paint great art, and invent new scientific theories?

The hard problem in high end audio has to do with designing loudspeakers (or headphones) that can truly resolve the full spectrum of information in a redbook (or high resolution) digital recording. We are very very far from achieving that goal, and the more time is spent in chasing non-problems, the more time is wasted on trivialities.
 
I'm 58, and when I was a kid I don't remember any of my friends tinkering with audio. This was obviously before "digital" (and computers at home, cell phones, etc...). Perhaps it was more popular in the 1950s.

By the way, here is a list of top hobbies in the US in 2024:

View attachment 141493
OMG we are less relevant than shopping!
 
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While I don't have a huge circle of friends, I don't know of a single one that has an audio system other than a bluetooth speaker and phone.
I have a fairly wide variety of friends and acquaintances.

One small group of friends are fellow music lover and audiophiles! It's a great group and we often meet to listen at each other's places and often go to concerts. We have even travelled together to the High End Show in Munich a few times.

Every once in a while I sell stuff on Canuck Audio Mart and have met some that I have sold to. They are invariably very nice people and they are into audio.

Among the others a few have modest but nice systems but they do enjoy listening. Glad to say some of these are younger, 40 ish, with kids that love music, yes vinyl too! Most don't have much, maybe a soundbar on the TV.

When I am in the gym pretty much all of the younger folk, especially the ladies , have earbuds. I am not sure what they are listening too but it must be important to them because the gym has its own sound system blaring away.

So yes most are not into audio but has it ever been that different. My parents had the console which I would equate to today's soundbars and earbuds. Audio was more of a thing in the 70s but it's not like everyone had a stereo. In the 80s maybe 90s it was the boom box for many, I suspect that today's personal listening devices are better, enough said.

So there is hope!
 
I have a fairly wide variety of friends and acquaintances.

One small group of friends are fellow music lover and audiophiles! It's a great group and we often meet to listen at each other's places and often go to concerts. We have even travelled together to the High End Show in Munich a few times.

Every once in a while I sell stuff on Canuck Audio Mart and have met some that I have sold to. They are invariably very nice people and they are into audio.

Among the others a few have modest but nice systems but they do enjoy listening. Glad to say some of these are younger, 40 ish, with kids that love music, yes vinyl too! Most don't have much, maybe a soundbar on the TV.

When I am in the gym pretty much all of the younger folk, especially the ladies , have earbuds. I am not sure what they are listening too but it must be important to them because the gym has its own sound system blaring away.

So yes most are not into audio but has it ever been that different. My parents had the console which I would equate to today's soundbars and earbuds. Audio was more of a thing in the 70s but it's not like everyone had a stereo. In the 80s maybe 90s it was the boom box for many, I suspect that today's personal listening devices are better, enough said.

So there is hope!
The important thing is, they're into music of one type or another. They may experience it differently than many of us do but that they are experiencing it is what matters most.
 
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I would partly agree with this statement. The major progress in high end audio in the past decade has been streaming, i.e. the ability to transmit large amounts of music digitally over the Internet at high bit rates. That innovation, incidentally, did not come from the high end market, but from a small startup in Sweden named Spotify (to see the beautiful story of how streaming was invented, see the Netflix docudrama The Playlist). A bunch of technical innovations, chiefly the ability to bypass some of the latency in the TCP/IP network protocol that runs the web was necessary to get real-time streaming to work (just as streaming movies required ideas like overlay networks, which a former academic colleague of mine invented in his Princeton PhD thesis -- he went on to co-found Akamai, whose hundreds of thousands of servers runs large parts of the Internet).

If you look at other categories, say speakers, I'd say there's been no innovation at all. The best loudspeakers of the past 60 years -- the Klipschorn, the Quad ESL 63, the Spendor BBC models, the Magneplanars etc. -- are still some of the best loudspeakers today. No real innovation in the science of making loudspeakers that I can see, except putting bigger cones in bigger boxes. Sure, there is innovation in materials used to make cones, like graphene or Alan Shaw's composite polymer RADIAL midrange cones in Harbeth, but that's an incremental innovation in my book.

What would a true innovation in loudspeaker technology look like? It's really simple -- produce a loudspeaker that can resolve all 16 bits recorded on humble CD disc that has been around for 40+ years. We are so so far from being able to hear the full resolution of redbook CD that it's laughable. The best loudspeakers can barely resolve 7-8 bits of information in the bass and treble, and even in the midrange, the resolution is just around 10-11 bits. To get true redbook quality sound from a loudspeaker, distortion has to be around 0.001% from 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Where are we now? Ha! More like 5% THD in the bass, perhaps 0.1% THD in the midrange for the best (read electrostatic or horn) loudspeakers, and worse in the treble. Solve this problem and you have a real breakthrough in high end audio.

What are manufacturers doing instead? Well, selling the same old wine in new bottles mostly. Or chasing after non-existent problems, like fancy media servers or DACs that weigh hundreds of pounds, but whose measured improvement over much cheaper solutions is non-existent. Fancy power chords or USB cables is not where the hard scientific problems in high end audio are. The more you chase after non-existent problems, the longer it will take to make genuine progress.

Since I have a scientific background, having spent most of my life as an academic, in most areas of science, there's a very clear understanding of what the truly hard scientific problems are. In physics, it is understanding the large-scale structure of the universe, how the universe began, and how to reconcile the large-scale force of gravity with the infinitesimal forces underlying quantum mechanics. Black holes are the hard scientific problem in physics -- a region where time and space cease to exist. Biologists are deeply interested in how life began on earth. We know evolution is what drives biology, but how did life even get started? That's the mystery. Neuroscientists want to understand the brain -- how can 100 billion neurons in our head write symphonies, paint great art, and invent new scientific theories?

The hard problem in high end audio has to do with designing loudspeakers (or headphones) that can truly resolve the full spectrum of information in a redbook (or high resolution) digital recording. We are very very far from achieving that goal, and the more time is spent in chasing non-problems, the more time is wasted on trivialities.
May I ask how you determine resolution
? not what it is but the method used to measure it.
is this done by recording the playback and compare in data used
I’m not flaming I’m very curious
I am very interested and do feel Anyone’s system is pale to compare jjst a single instrument in front of us.
and percussive energy is very low in an audio system
years ago I was driving my pickup in nyc and a marching band was playing on the sidewalk.
30 feet away
My truck was shaking from the large drum.
I know the buildings helped but clearly no system I’ve heard could do this.
At one time I was a dj in some large clubs
Racks of amps
building would shake outside
but this was 30k or more just on huge subs all over
 
I'm 58, and when I was a kid I don't remember any of my friends tinkering with audio. This was obviously before "digital" (and computers at home, cell phones, etc...). Perhaps it was more popular in the 1950s.

By the way, here is a list of top hobbies in the US in 2024:

View attachment 141493
My other hobby is solar/lunar/planetary amateur astronomy.

Music for my soul and telescopes for the solar system gets me outdoors during the day & night to stimulate my mind & body.

Looks like both of my hobbies fall into the "other" category which is 6%...
 
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An inexpensive audiophile system is subjective, but it is possible to achieve high-quality sound without reaching the extreme price points of premium systems. Here's a breakdown of what such a system might look like:
  1. Speakers: Price range: $2,500 - $3,500
  2. Amplifier: Price range: $1,500 - $2,500
  3. Source / DAC: Price range: $1,000 - $1,500
  4. Turntable: Price range: $1,500 - $2,800
  5. Cables & Accessories: Price range: $500 - $1,300

Vs a $100 Bluetooth speaker a phone and headphones which everyone already has ? Kind of proves the point, add up the lowest numbers $7000 ? You see that as as an attractive alternative? The phone is the key to it all music, video's, games any manner of apps for socializing why bother with anything like a dedicated "only" music system?

Rob :)
 
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Vs a $100 Bluetooth speaker a phone and headphones which everyone already has ? Kind of proves the point, add up the lowest numbers $7000 ? You see that as as an attractive alternative? The phone is the key to it all music, video's, games any manner of apps for socializing why bother with anything like a dedicated "only" music system?

Rob :)

Exactly, and that in a nutshell explains digital and analog. Mainstream versus fringe. I like the fringes.
 
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The phone is the key to it all
...I agree with Rob: the role of the phone cannot be over-stated. I am writing this from my room, having taken a little break.

My room is in an Ecuadorian rainforest, a couple of hours up the Napo River. I listened to a little Qobuz with earbuds last night. Have been using the Merlin app to identify bird songs/species.

I love my dedicated system and am looking forward to getting back to it after a couple of wet-weeks, but the penetration of phone music, the portability and relatively cheap/easy access is startling, compared to all that it means to have a dedicated system. No wonder the audio hobby doesn't register much in the numbers. Back to the birds...
 
There’s also a ton of music that doesn’t benefit from an audiophile grade setup. A Best-Buy Klipsch setup bangs, and meets the sound litmus, especially if there’s not a local sound shop they could goto and compare.
 
Exactly, and that in a nutshell explains digital and analog. Mainstream versus fringe. I like the fringes.

I am not so sure I agree with that. The main difference between digital vs analog is analog requires you to own physical media for playback. You can't stream vinyl. However you can digitize it. Streaming is the key which goes way beyond any one person's ability to own the physical media. It's like comparing my bookshelf with the library of congress.

Not to get into the never ending analog vs digital debate they are both flawed however you can get enjoyment from both.

Rob :)
 
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The important thing is, they're into music of one type or another. They may experience it differently than many of us do but that they are experiencing it is what matters most.
Yes indeed enjoying music is the most important thing! Thanks for amplifying that point.
 
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I'm 58, and when I was a kid I don't remember any of my friends tinkering with audio. This was obviously before "digital" (and computers at home, cell phones, etc...). Perhaps it was more popular in the 1950s.

By the way, here is a list of top hobbies in the US in 2024:

View attachment 141493
This list of hobbies is quite interesting. This list appears to represent middle America, where so many of us reside. We see plenty of youth with headphones wrapped around their necks which indicates they are listening to music. I would agree that they are likely placing their hobby in the Tech/Computer category. There are certainly a couple of general categories which affect our industry: 1) The hobby as an entry level - where nice sounding stereo systems are built without spending large sums of money (it's all relative to be sure). 2) High end audio which can also fall into the luxury goods category. The list of hobbies from a luxury standpoint would likely differ to some degree. Automobiles, travel, real estate, and watch collecting would probably factor with high percentage points. Would high end audio make the list in this category? In this country, perhaps not. This means our industry has a lot of work to do, in both categories.

I'm sure everyone on this forum agrees with the value music can play in our lives. New music is constantly being created and new artists emerge on a daily basis. Life without music would be no life at all for many of us. I have three grown children with families and careers. They know of my career and the passion I have for it. They love music but have not yet caught the passion to enter into the hobby. One of my offspring even collects vinyl LPs but without a system to do them justice (small plastic speakers and TT, etc.). In summary, the goal is for our endeavor (industry) to become more relevant, accepted, and important!!!
 
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I would partly agree with this statement. The major progress in high end audio in the past decade has been streaming, i.e. the ability to transmit large amounts of music digitally over the Internet at high bit rates. That innovation, incidentally, did not come from the high end market, but from a small startup in Sweden named Spotify (to see the beautiful story of how streaming was invented, see the Netflix docudrama The Playlist). A bunch of technical innovations, chiefly the ability to bypass some of the latency in the TCP/IP network protocol that runs the web was necessary to get real-time streaming to work (just as streaming movies required ideas like overlay networks, which a former academic colleague of mine invented in his Princeton PhD thesis -- he went on to co-found Akamai, whose hundreds of thousands of servers runs large parts of the Internet).

If you look at other categories, say speakers, I'd say there's been no innovation at all. The best loudspeakers of the past 60 years -- the Klipschorn, the Quad ESL 63, the Spendor BBC models, the Magneplanars etc. -- are still some of the best loudspeakers today. No real innovation in the science of making loudspeakers that I can see, except putting bigger cones in bigger boxes. Sure, there is innovation in materials used to make cones, like graphene or Alan Shaw's composite polymer RADIAL midrange cones in Harbeth, but that's an incremental innovation in my book.

What would a true innovation in loudspeaker technology look like? It's really simple -- produce a loudspeaker that can resolve all 16 bits recorded on humble CD disc that has been around for 40+ years. We are so so far from being able to hear the full resolution of redbook CD that it's laughable. The best loudspeakers can barely resolve 7-8 bits of information in the bass and treble, and even in the midrange, the resolution is just around 10-11 bits. To get true redbook quality sound from a loudspeaker, distortion has to be around 0.001% from 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Where are we now? Ha! More like 5% THD in the bass, perhaps 0.1% THD in the midrange for the best (read electrostatic or horn) loudspeakers, and worse in the treble. Solve this problem and you have a real breakthrough in high end audio.

What are manufacturers doing instead? Well, selling the same old wine in new bottles mostly. Or chasing after non-existent problems, like fancy media servers or DACs that weigh hundreds of pounds, but whose measured improvement over much cheaper solutions is non-existent. Fancy power chords or USB cables is not where the hard scientific problems in high end audio are. The more you chase after non-existent problems, the longer it will take to make genuine progress.

Since I have a scientific background, having spent most of my life as an academic, in most areas of science, there's a very clear understanding of what the truly hard scientific problems are. In physics, it is understanding the large-scale structure of the universe, how the universe began, and how to reconcile the large-scale force of gravity with the infinitesimal forces underlying quantum mechanics. Black holes are the hard scientific problem in physics -- a region where time and space cease to exist. Biologists are deeply interested in how life began on earth. We know evolution is what drives biology, but how did life even get started? That's the mystery. Neuroscientists want to understand the brain -- how can 100 billion neurons in our head write symphonies, paint great art, and invent new scientific theories?

The hard problem in high end audio has to do with designing loudspeakers (or headphones) that can truly resolve the full spectrum of information in a redbook (or high resolution) digital recording. We are very very far from achieving that goal, and the more time is spent in chasing non-problems, the more time is wasted on trivialities.
I’m a former owner of Harbeth SHL5+ and Quad ESL63 and the only reason why I don’t have either is because my wife hated the sight of them. The ESL63 are the most transparent speaker. I’ve ended up with Wilson Sabrina because the wife liked the look of them and I’m perfectly happy with them, a good compromise Sound vs. Aesthetics.

I made a DAC mistake, wanting a small compact streamer DAC I bought a Lumin T3 and after 3 or 4 months wondered why I was listening to vinyl so much. I managed to arrange a blind test with a Holo May, taking the digital stream from the T3 to the Holo May v the analogue output of the T3. Level matched, same $70 analogue XLR cables into the integrated amplifier. It was very easy to hear the difference in resolution and imaging, from two DACs that both have a very low noise floor, the Holo May 10dB or more lower. The point being, the speakers were able to resolve the difference. If your THD theory is correct, I would not have heard any difference and should perhaps have just used my $500 Chord Mojo.
 
I don't think high end audio is dying. It's just remaining the small niche it has been since around the mid-80s.

The three most high energy areas are headphones, streaming, and vinyl. As long as those remain vibrant, we are likely to remain a steady, stable niche. The industry should focus on making affordable systems that are easy to setup in these areas. There is some real progress there, especially on streaming devices and turntables.

I believe the key is around the high school and college years where a love of music and music reproduction is most likely to have the biggest impression.

For my part, I like to invite younger folks over to hear the system using their own music, ideally using their own records to play. Often they are astonished how good things can sound and how great records in particular sound.

David Chesky and I have been talking for a while about a dream to have a manufacturer sponsored tour to set up quality hifi systems at major colleges. I think that is one possible way forward.
 
Vs a $100 Bluetooth speaker a phone and headphones which everyone already has ? Kind of proves the point, add up the lowest numbers $7000 ? You see that as as an attractive alternative? The phone is the key to it all music, video's, games any manner of apps for socializing why bother with anything like a dedicated "only" music system?

Rob :)
I think a 5k or 7k audio system can get you more pleasurable sound experience than a Bluetooth speaker or headphone. I know what I choose as teenager in the 80’s. It was simple audio setup over a boombox as some of my friends.
 
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No real progress? I would beg to differ.

Tom
Please explain what progress you think the industry has made over the system I owned between age 28 and 34, 1981 to 1988. Just the sound reaching my ears.
 
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I think a 5k or 7k audio system can get you more pleasurable sound experience than a Bluetooth speaker or headphone. I know what I choose as teenager in the 80’s. It was simple audio setup over a boombox as some of my friends.

There is no doubt that we - as audiophiles - perceive the benefits of the systems we use. As a result, it is difficult to understand why others are not bothered by lower quality sound, even after they hear what a better system can do. The reason for this is simple, however - they hear the music, and don't focus on the sound.
 
Another aspect of this debate is the proliferation of entertainment choices over time driven by technology.

Playing video games is hot culturally, listening to music from two speakers is not.

Listening to music on headphones is hot. How do we get people buying better headphones to buy a pair of speakers?

We have gotten them to buy better amps and DACs.
 
In my many years of experience in this hobby I cannot recall any non audiophile person sitting down and listening to more than a couple of songs on my rig and it was typically less than a song. They just don’t feel comfortable, I guess sitting there staring into empty space. A few will get sucked into the music, but not many. Sure, these days it is easy enough to mount a flat screen on the wall and show Apple TV screensavers. When I listen, I imagine the instruments and musicians in place based on the imaging. I don’t need my MTV.

And then the most common comment is, “I thought it would have more bass.” My comeback: I strive for quality not quantity in the bass. But as someone said, it is not easy reproducing the pounding a marching band bass drum can do to you in real life. I used to go to the blues bars in Detroit in the 1990’s. The bass was always way over powering. I like the blues but I am happy to not shake my house down listening to the blues.
 
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