Is better sound with RCA cable or XLR cable?

[microstrip]

(...) In a nutshell, if you get to hear balanced line done right, there's no going back to single-ended. Its that good- imagine a system where you could have the sound of the most expensive and best cables on earth, but without the cost. That's the balanced line system- it was created in part to eliminate the sound that cables otherwise impose and as also created to get rid of ground loop buzz. Its very good at both if the standard is observed.

Ralph,

You are admitting that "cable sound" - the signals added by cable physics - is common mode and is canceled in a a balanced line done right. IMHO, as no one has a reasonable and accepted explanation for cable sound, we can't be sure of it. Also most audiophiles buy expensive cables to get a sound they prefer - why should they abdicate on it?

I should refer that in my past experience with your electronics I have found that Cardas Golden Reference, Nordost Valhala, Crystalcable Dreamline and Mogami Neglex sounded different in the XLR connection between preamplfier and amplifier. But it is just my opinion!

 

[bazelio]

So your arm doesn't have the 5 pin DIN at the rear of the arm?

Nope. The "phono cable" is hardwired to the arm without connectors. This cable is terminated after about 1.5m with Eichmann silver RCAs.

 

[ddk]

Ralph,

You are admitting that "cable sound" - the signals added by cable physics - is common mode and is canceled in a a balanced line done right. IMHO, as no one has a reasonable and accepted explanation for cable sound, we can't be sure of it. Also most audiophiles buy expensive cables to get a sound they prefer - why should they abdicate on it?

I should refer that in my past experience with your electronics I have found that Cardas Golden Reference, Nordost Valhala, Crystalcable Dreamline and Mogami Neglex sounded different in the XLR connection between preamplfier and amplifier. But it is just my opinion!

The question remains what is balanced done right and the other way to look at the wire comment is that the overriding sound character in this case will be that of the SUT and not other components.

david

 

[ack]

It might be of interest to you to know that all cartridges are balanced sources, and only get to be single-ended by how they are connected at the output of the tone arm. If you have a five wire connection (the 5th being the tone arm ground) then you have a balanced connection- often which is being run single-ended. The nice thing about going balanced with the cartridge is that the tone arm cable ceases to impose a sonic artifact, and since this is at the output of the cartridge, this is the best possible place for that sort of thing to be going on.

Ralph, where do you see the "balanced sources" in cartridges? The phono wires are extensions of two coils, one per channel, connecting said coils to the +/- of the phono stage's input, and that's it; on top of that, yes, you have a ground wire, connecting phono chassis ground to arm ground. But in no way is the ground wire part of the signal, much less in a "balanced" configuration. Or as Wayne Colburn of Pass told me years ago, "we haven't seen a balanced cartridge yet."

 

[BruceD]

Or as Wayne Colburn of Pass told me years ago, "we haven't seen a balanced cartridge yet."

Ah, that is interesting--not even the early Japanese Field Coil designs ( 6 pins)

BruceD

 

[Atmasphere]

Do wire vendors agree with you on this about their mega dollar cables Ralph? Why would wire conductors, design and connectors not have a sonic impact in this case when the design and materials of the SUT have a direct impact on the sound? Not trying to catch you but trying to understand what you mean and how's that possible.



One can use the same argument for SETs, there's no going back if you hear a properly designed one with a proprietary transformer.

Balanced wasn't designed for a few feet of cabling it was a way to deal with hum and noise on miles and miles of telephone wires, how does it apply to short phono cables?

david

Balanced lines work great even if only 6" long. The length is not the point, the lack of artifact is. High end cable manufacturers don't like my position on this.

FWIW I've yet to hear an SET bring home the bacon. No bass extension, a lot of them have troubles with the highs. But I run amps that are unusual by most people's standards- triode, full power to 1Hz, class A, no feedback, one stage of gain, fully balanced/differential, no output transformer. Its a lot more transparent than any SET and this is easy to hear in 5 seconds flat. More relaxed too, since there is less distortion, so there is a natural use of more power since distortion causes SETs to sound louder than they really are. But this latter bit is likely a topic for another thread.

The question remains what is balanced done right and the other way to look at the wire comment is that the overriding sound character in this case will be that of the SUT and not other components.

david

I have no need of an SUT, but any transformer is very good at running balanced.

In case it was not clear, the balanced standard (AKA AES48) is pretty simple:
1) pin 1 is ground, signal is on pins 2 and 3. In the US, pin 2 is the non-inverting side
2) ground is ignored- used for shielding only. If the signal is referenced to ground, this is a problem and can cause the cable to become audible.
3) the system is usually fairly low impedance. In the old days for line signals, 600 ohms at the input of the receiver end of the cable was standard. Nowadays 1000-2000 ohms is acceptable. Its not so much that the receiver has to have such a low input impedance, but the source should be able to drive it, and any LOMC cartridge can.

Ralph, where do you see the "balanced sources" in cartridges? The phono wires are extensions of two coils, one per channel, connecting said coils to the +/- of the phono stage's input, and that's it; on top of that, yes, you have a ground wire, connecting phono chassis ground to arm ground. But in no way is the ground wire part of the signal, much less in a "balanced" configuration. Or as Wayne Colburn of Pass told me years ago, "we haven't seen a balanced cartridge yet."

Wayne was incorrect, plain and simple. A center tap would degrade performance (would reduce Common Mode Rejection Ratio, and probably significantly) as it would never be an exact center tap. I think this might be the most misunderstood aspect of balanced operation! The signal occurs between pins 2 and 3 of the XLR and ground is not connected in any way to the source. A coil in space like a cartridge, tape head or microphone element is thus a balanced source. So on our preamp, which had the first balanced phono section ever made, the cartridge is connected to pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, and the arm ground is pin 1. Simple- easy- and no more cable artifact.

 

[Folsom]

Artifact is poor word. You don't hear them as independent audible artifacts. But you can measure the influence and hear a difference (which is not distinct sounds).

I still have yet to prefer a balanced system's sound. I understand how it is superior, and yet this is a subjective hobby. If you were really obsessed with "superior" you probably wouldn't be designing tube gear, Ralph. Also you can increase common mode rejection in more ways than one.

 

[Atmasphere]

Artifact is poor word. You don't hear them as independent audible artifacts. But you can measure the influence and hear a difference (which is not distinct sounds).

I still have yet to prefer a balanced system's sound. I understand how it is superior, and yet this is a subjective hobby. If you were really obsessed with "superior" you probably wouldn't be designing tube gear, Ralph. Also you can increase common mode rejection in more ways than one.

If a cable is brighter than its competition, I call that an artifact. Put another way though, the 'sound' of a cable is what balanced line is supposed to eliminate. That's why it exists.

Nearly all of any of the recordings used by anyone involve balanced lines- at the very least between the microphone and the microphone preamp. An exception might be completely electronic or computer-generated music, where the sound source (like my Mellotron or Prophet 5 syth) is single-ended or in software only and all the recording and mixing is done on a computer.

CMRR can be improved by proper use of an in-fact-for-real-higher-performing constant current source in tandem with differential amplifiers. CMRR is *never* improved by referencing the signal to ground. This is why transformers can be really pretty good at high CMRR numbers, as long as one remembers that no center tap is needed and the ground does not involve the signal. But we get numbers well over 100db without them, and I find transformers usually invoke a cost of lower resolution, so I avoid them as much as possible.

 

[ack]

A center tap would degrade performance (would reduce Common Mode Rejection Ratio, and probably significantly) as it would never be an exact center tap. I think this might be the most misunderstood aspect of balanced operation! The signal occurs between pins 2 and 3 of the XLR and ground is not connected in any way to the source. A coil in space like a cartridge, tape head or microphone element is thus a balanced source. So on our preamp, which had the first balanced phono section ever made, the cartridge is connected to pins 2 and 3 of the XLR input, and the arm ground is pin 1. Simple- easy- and no more cable artifact.

Well, that’s how I want my phono connections as well - I use XLR out of my VPI - but that’s not balanced; instead, what I am looking for is the cable shield covering 100% of the cable, end to end. So for this to be truly balanced, can you show voltage potential between ground and one leg of the coil, when the other leg isn’t connected to anything? Ditto for a microphone.

 

[Atmasphere]

Well, that’s how I want my phono connections as well - I use XLR out of my VPI - but that’s not balanced; instead, what I am looking for is the cable shield covering 100% of the cable, end to end. So for this to be truly balanced, can you show voltage potential between ground and one leg of the coil, when the other leg isn’t connected to anything? Ditto for a microphone.

No. That would be an open connection. Whether the other 'leg' is connected or not you would not seen any voltage potential to ground. The voltage potential should be between pins 2 and 3 of the XLR. We've built balanced cables for VPI arms. The fun part is they aren't expensive as tone arm cables tend to be.

 

[ack]

No. That would be an open connection. Whether the other 'leg' is connected or not you would not seen any voltage potential to ground. The voltage potential should be between pins 2 and 3 of the XLR. We've built balanced cables for VPI arms. The fun part is they aren't expensive as tone arm cables tend to be.

Correct, there would be no voltage potential under that scenario; therefore, to me this is not truly balanced.

 

[Atmasphere]

Correct, there would be no voltage potential under that scenario; therefore, to me this is not truly balanced.

But it is! Actually, anything else isn't.

It sounds to me like you don't understand how the balanced system works. What did you have in mind?

 

[ack]

But it is! Actually, anything else isn't.

It sounds to me like you don't understand how the balanced system works. What did you have in mind?

At the *source* - cartridge, microphone, et al - can you state what the electrical relationship is between ground and either of the coil's leads? I see none whatsoever. Next, let's remove the arm and ground wire from the picture, leaving just the cartridge, four wires and phono, and let's then define the relationship between ground and cartridge coils.

 

[Folsom]

If a cable is brighter than its competition, I call that an artifact. Put another way though, the 'sound' of a cable is what balanced line is supposed to eliminate. That's why it exists.

Nearly all of any of the recordings used by anyone involve balanced lines- at the very least between the microphone and the microphone preamp. An exception might be completely electronic or computer-generated music, where the sound source (like my Mellotron or Prophet 5 syth) is single-ended or in software only and all the recording and mixing is done on a computer.

CMRR can be improved by proper use of an in-fact-for-real-higher-performing constant current source in tandem with differential amplifiers. CMRR is *never* improved by referencing the signal to ground. This is why transformers can be really pretty good at high CMRR numbers, as long as one remembers that no center tap is needed and the ground does not involve the signal. But we get numbers well over 100db without them, and I find transformers usually invoke a cost of lower resolution, so I avoid them as much as possible.

Brightness is not an artifact. It is an abberrated signal if you know it is not what the album has... but even that is an odd word for an overall characteristic.

The beauty in recording is current be damned. There are other reasons that balanced in recording works out better.

 

[Folsom]

At the *source* - cartridge, microphone, et al - can you state what the electrical relationship is between ground and either of the coil's leads? I see none whatsoever. Next, let's remove the arm and ground wire from the picture, leaving just the cartridge, four wires and phono, and let's then define the relationship between ground and cartridge coils.

Al, hate to break it to you but... balanced doesn't referance safety ground. There is no need. It also isn't dependent on circuit ground (to exist). While there is some reasoning to why a cartridge can look SE, it has zero to do with ground.

You are probably thinking about what a transformer looks like that is balanced to balanced or balanced to single ended. They commonly use a CT ground, but it is only necessary because of the way they wind them. The thing with a cartridge is they also don't wind them to develop opposite voltages. So phono carts are bi-directional but they are floating with respect to ground/zero amplitude. What makes them act balanced is by having the phono preamp split the difference. The problem there is that the stylus must be perfectly centered to the coil to achieve that. Are they? Hell if I know. But they still work, and can sound great even if you are more push or more pull.

 

[ack]

Al, hate to break it to you but... balanced doesn't referance safety ground. There is no need. It also isn't dependent on circuit ground (to exist). While there is some reasoning to why a cartridge can look SE, it has zero to do with ground.

You are probably thinking about what a transformer looks like that is balanced to balanced or balanced to single ended. They commonly use a CT ground, but it is only necessary because of the way they wind them. The thing with a cartridge is they also don't wind them to develop opposite voltages. So phono carts are bi-directional but they are floating with respect to ground/zero amplitude. What makes them act balanced is by having the phono preamp split the difference. The problem there is that the stylus must be perfectly centered to the coil to achieve that. Are they? Hell if I know. But they still work, and can sound great even if you are more push or more pull.

Not sure exactly what you are saying, but let me simplify the question: a coil with two leads [+/-], operating in a static magnetic field and generating voltage by virtue of moving around said field, is a balanced source? How?

 

[microstrip]

Not sure exactly what you are saying, but let me simplify the question: a coil with two leads [+/-], operating in a static magnetic field and generating voltage by virtue of moving around said field, is a balanced source? How?

I will try to address this question in a simple way, considering current, not voltage.

We must consider that "balanced" is a mode of operation and we generically call "balanced sources" to sources that are operated in balanced mode. Balanced mode refers essentially to equal output impedance of both legs and equal input impedance of the differential stage, and to differential signals - usually equal voltage amplitude positive and negative phase.

A floating source, such as a phono cartridge, when connected to a "balanced input" becomes a balanced source, as the current created by the cartridge creates a balanced system. A balanced input has equal input impedance in both legs, the current created by the cartridge will generate equal opposite voltage signals in the inputs.

Some tonearms have balanced wires until the RCA plug, it is very simple to use them in true balanced mode just fitting two XLR plugs.

When we connect a leg of a cartridge to ground it becomes a single ended source.

 

[ack]

A floating source, such as a phono cartridge, when connected to a "balanced input" becomes a balanced source, as the current created by the cartridge creates a balanced system.

Well, yes, *when connected* to a true balanced input, then it can be pseudo viewed as a "balanced source", *not that it actually is*. The question then is, what do you really gain by having a true balanced phono. Said otherwise, I hope no one will actually claim that all phono stages offering just RCA inputs have been getting the whole thing wrong, for decades.

 

[microstrip]

Well, yes, *when connected* to a true balanced input, then it can be pseudo viewed as a "balanced source", *not that it actually is*. The question then is, what do you really gain by having a true balanced phono. Said otherwise, I hope no one will actually claim that all phono stages offering just RCA inputs have been getting the whole thing wrong, for decades.

No, a floating source is intrinsically "balanced". Just see the cartridge as a generator with two legs, each having half the impedance of the cartridge. It is like a transformer with just two output wires - it is a balanced source. We "unbalance" it when we connect one leg to the ground.

And you are distorting arguments - no one says RCA gets things forcefully wrong. It is good enough for the purpose. Many people will claim that the complexity of balanced limits its theoretical advantage in practice. We always have compromises in every solution and it is why we have debates in WBF!

 

[bazelio]

No, a floating source is intrinsically "balanced". Just see the cartridge as a generator with two legs, each having half the impedance of the cartridge. It is like a transformer with just two output wires - it is a balanced source. We "unbalance" it when we connect one leg to the ground.

And you are distorting arguments - no one says RCA gets things forcefully wrong. It is good enough for the purpose. Many people will claim that the complexity of balanced limits its theoretical advantage in practice. We always have compromises in every solution and it is why we have debates in WBF!

I agree. And, my Kuzma 4-point arms are hardwired balanced all the way to the RCA connectors. So they can just as easily be terminated with XLR connectors instead, and I think Kuzma can offer a 5-pin DIN option as well. While a balanced phono stage could be beneficial, I don't favor XLR phono connectors because as we said 4 pages ago, many or most phono stages simply offer XLR inputs without being truly balanced. I really don't want to limit my choices to truly balanced gear, I don't care for some potential tradeoffs with differential designs, and I definitely don't want to be using "faux" XLR inputs on otherwise unbalanced gear. So it becomes a matter of preference...